2004 Championship Eligibility Criteria!!!

#21

*Originally posted by Ricky Q. *
**Teams that qualify at 2004 events will register through FIRST the Monday following their event if they are going to go, they get to work out all the fun logistics such as paying the entry fee, shipping, travel and all that fun stuff.

Hope that helps. **

And where do u see that anywhere on the FIRST page about the Championship? Where did find that out if not from the FIRST homepage?

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#22

*Originally posted by computhief263 *
**And where do u see that anywhere on the FIRST page about the Championship? Where did find that out if not from the FIRST homepage? **

You will find it on the finance page.

Teams qualifying at a Regional to attend the Championship must contact FIRST Finance at 1-800-871-8326 ext. #414 or #415 to make payment arrangements by Check or Credit Card on the Monday following the qualifying Regional

Finance Page

Wetzel

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#23

*Originally posted by JVN *
**Sure with the tiered system it might take you 7 years to get a “free ride” to the championship, but at least you’ll get to go eventually
**

I hope this doesn’t seriously happen… Think about it, if you join a FIRST team in your freshman year, and stay with it during all 4 years of high school, but have to leave for college, work, etc. after you graduate, then you have missed out on the opportunity to experience what a first National competition is all about.

True, you will have gone to many regionals, and maybe mini comps along the way, but the Nationals event is the grandest event in FIRST… Why take that experience away from someone??

Compared to a regional or mini comp, Nationals is indescribable!

I think that every team should at least have an opportunity to go to the Nats every 4 years at least (3 would be better, 2 would be great) because of just that reason.

I hope this is just a temporary solution like it has been guessed before!

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#24

I would like to encourage everyone to wait 30 minutes when they thought they have something important to ask/comment, to think about it and research for an answer before it cause any confusion to all the readers out there reading this thread.

Couple of clarifications:

  1. On the FIRST website, although there is no direct link in the front, you can go into FIRST Robotics Competition, then into Championship Event to look up the 2004 Championship Eligibility. This is not a joke trying to fool people. The link is http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004/cmp_elig.htm

  2. Take your time to read it. There are a few ways you can qualify for Championship Event 2004:

A. All prior Championship Chairman’s Award Winners, original teams from 92’, 03’ Stack Attack CE (Championship Event) Champions.

B. Merit Based Qualifying Teams from the 2004 season:

Regional Chairman’s Award winners (1 per Regional)
Regional Engineering Inspiration Award winners (1 per Regional)
Regional Rookie All-Star Award winners (1 per Regional)
**Regional Champions (3 per Regional) **

C. Point system from last year, only effective for 2004. The Point system will not be used after 2004 until they change the rules to allow it.

D. Tiered system: The longer you haven’t been to CE, the more likely you will get in.

  1. The original sustaining 92’ teams are:

19 - Big Red Robotics
45 - Technokats
126 - Gael Force
190 - WPI
191 - Xcats
250 - Dynamos

Again, please let the reasoning and logic part of your brain kicks in and not let the emotional and feelings part take over and rush to a post. Thanks.

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#25

I too agree that this is an improvement over the existing point system. But it still needs work

More teams will get a chance to go to the Nats. That should be paramount. But ALL should be able to go on equal terms or we should make this a true championship

But it makes the current season’s winners jump trough hoops to get qualified to attend. At least in the past you could prequalify to travel based on the prior season’s play. Now you have a potential for 60 teams or more needing to scramble to make trip arrangements at the last minute. It will be costly and nerve wracking. It has already proven an excluding force this past year for many teams who won but couldn’t come up with the travel arrangements at the last minute. And if that is the case is there really a championship? I see a lot of good machines being left behind because they won too late.

The solution is to expand the Nationals- something that everyone at FIRST refuses to acknowledge. It is not impossible but apparenly is not in the mindset of the parent organization.

As for mega-regionals? If they are as good as the Nats, are recognized as the Nats are and offer travel experience for the team on par with the Nats then I say go for it. But frankly, I doubt that will be the case. We have a long way to go before all the regionals have the same quality as the Nationals. And selling a trip to the National Championships to my superintendant is a lot easer than selling a trip to some regional in xyz.

Will FIRST guarantee that a team gets to the Nats every 4 years? I wonder and hope so.

Wouldn’t it be easier to just add 500 new teams than try to figure out who can or can’t go? My team will be there this year and we want to keep attending. But I dread the idea of needing to win during the season and raise a huge sum of money for the team to travel at the last minute on compromised terms.

WC

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#26

Elgin: They are also trying to please the crowd that wants the best robots there I’m in that crowd and the crowd that wants everyone to be there, so I agree with you that it would be nice to have everyone go every couple years. But that is highly unlikely.

Everyone: I would like to point out the fact that the system for going to the CE is in it’s third evolution (first everyone could go, then even/odd and points, now tiers). It changed because it needed to be changed and because we wanted it to be changed, respectively. I think if we come to a point where we find the system to be flawed or unfavorable, then it will be changed again. FIRST has never turned a deaf ear to us because we are FIRST and FIRST is us. This solution came out of countless hours of reading forum notes from individuals.

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#27

*Originally posted by JVN *
**

Sure with the tiered system it might take you 7 years to get a “free ride” to the championship, but at least you’ll get to go eventually

John- I’m not seeing that. How do I tell my students in a 4 year school that they are working hard to send a team that they won’t be a part of three years later? This needs to be a maximum of a 4 year rotation. Two years would be better

In the mean time… enjoy yourself at FIRST’s new (unconfirmed) “Mega-Regionals” and try to earn your trip down to The Championship.

John- even if I “earn it” in week 8 of the season how do I make travel plans reasonably? Is FIRST going to make the registration free and save us the 4K? I think not.

I know there may be a few flaws with this system, but I think we should sit back and see how it actually works before we overly-criticize it. I believe FIRST has done a bang-up job in crafting this new system.

Agreed, it is a step in the right direction. But they shot many of their biggest participants in the foot here. Not everybody can win but all should have a reasonable chance to participate. With only a few teams winning the rest are left hanging despite their participation and contributions.

Just my comments…
John

(If nothing else, this will light a fire under the butts of those veteran teams as they scramble to qualify… should be a fun and competitive season :slight_smile: I know I’m going to tell my guys… “We either put up, or shut up!” :wink: )

Gee John- I though I HAD a fire under my butt (ouch- very dangerous). We HAVE put up or shut up. I don’t know if I want to scramble any more if the game is going to change every time we get established in the current system… **

We need a bigger National- not a smaller field. I thought we were trying to reach ALL the high schools in the Nation?

WC:cool:

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#28

I have mixed feelings about the new system. I like the tier system a lot as it ensures that everyone gets to go eventually. However, I really don’t like the fact that after this year most awards will count for next to nothing. The technology awards are there to acknowledge teams with great design regardless of their overall performance. Its fairly easy to have the most amazing design ever, but not be able to win a regional due to bad luck, bad alliance selection, or something like that. Also, the judges awards and team spirit awards acknowledge teams that are making great contribution, even though it might not be as much as the teams that win Chairman’s or Engineering Inspiration. These teams should still get a better chance to go to nationals, especially team spirit as they add a lot to the overall atmosphere of the competition. Perhaps FIRST could use a modified points system to help award winning teams qualify. Under this system, you would get points based on your tier(ie 1st tier-1 point, 2nd tier- 2 points, etc) and then additional points based on awards. The number of points necessary to qualify could be changed every year based on the number of spots available.

I also really don’t like the extremely limited amount of time given for teams who qualify during the season(which is almost everyone under the new system). 2 days is just not enough to get permission from the school district, raise the money, etc. Since there’s a free week between the last regional and nationals, why not make the deadline for all teams in the time frame? Also, since theres such short notice, I hope that FIRST can reserve hotel rooms and flights for teams that qualify at the last minute.

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#29

This seems very unclear about how the tiered system operates and that makes me anxious.

As Ricky mentioned, is it that a fraction of the open spots available each year are designated to be for any one tier? That is, there’d be 20 open spots for Tier 6, 20 for Tier 5, 20 for 4, etc.? Or, is it that the entirety of the open spots are made available for registration on a tier by tier basis? In other words, Tier 6 teams are given a week to register for, say, 150 open spots, then tier 5 gets access to what’s left for a week, etc.?

Then, if it gets to Tier 3 which contains, say, 80 teams and there are only 40 slots available, it says there’ll be a lottery to determine eligibility. Well, how does the lottery work and when will teams be notified?

I’d like for this to be clarified.

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#30

*Originally posted by Wayne C. *
**
The solution is to expand the Nationals- something that everyone at FIRST refuses to acknowledge. It is not impossible but apparenly is not in the mindset of the parent organization.

Wouldn’t it be easier to just add 500 new teams than try to figure out who can or can’t go? My team will be there this year and we want to keep attending. But I dread the idea of needing to win during the season and raise a huge sum of money for the team to travel at the last minute on compromised terms.

WC **

Wayne, let me say one thing since you run an off-season competition. Would it be easier for your team to make Brunswick Eruptuion 2004, 2005 etc… larger to fit 200 teams if they wanted to attend or would it be easier to make a fair way to pick only certain amounts of teams to attend. think about that please and think of the logistics behind an event that you want to hold 1000 teams or so compaired to an event to hold 350 teams or so. i think personally FIRST might beable to let more people in if they had more people to help work at the event…

~Mike

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#31

*Originally posted by SarahB *
**However, I really don’t like the fact that after this year most awards will count for next to nothing. The technology awards are there to acknowledge teams with great design regardless of their overall performance.
**

I agree with you on that point. It seems FIRST is leaning more toward better performing robots than creative designs. If I’m not mistaken my team has attended the CE every year since 2000 (or 2001 maybe) because of a combination of a tech award, the even/odd system and winning SBPLI in 2001. By cutting out the awards you start alienating a lot of teams. I always thought the point of FIRST was to come up with great designs, not to win a competition, and the awards motivated that, now it doesn’t seem that way. :frowning:

Well for those who lost me in my sea of rambling, I think the awards should be worth more, just my thoughts.

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#32

I think i understand the new system now, but i still don’t like it.
I feel that if the new system stays in place foo an indefinite amount of time then we will wind up w/ a “Championship”(and i use that term loosely) where you see a majority of same teams year after year qualifying.

I feel this new system is too restricted and doesn’t give small teams (such as my own) who do very well by their own standards a chance to become serious competitors (by that i mean they don’t get the chance to compete against teams from across the country and a chance to compete against some of the better teams in first)

And as for “mega regionals” i don’t see them happening in the near future. But even if something like that arises in the next few years it still wont (in my mind) have the same feeling/prestige(possibly a bad term to use) of a “championship”, Nor do i see teams traveling across the country to “mega regionals” as they do for the Championship b/c of that reason

Generalbrando: define “best”, how can any one person/group of people decide what the “best” robots in FIRST are?

Thats just my opinion on this subject, take for what u want.

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#33

Soo what about 2nd year teams who have never been and never qualified? What teir are we in? It seems we have no way to qualify other than regional performance.

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#34

computhief263: I don’t know how any group can determine the "best"robots in a just way because I don’t understand what it means to be just (been reading Plato, sorry). Anyway, I wasn’t making any reference to the points you made. I was really just trying to make the point that the robots that do well in the competition (and therefore could be argued as some of the best) get to go to the CE. Don’t take that to mean that the best team is the one with the winning robot - we don’t need to go on that tangent:)

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#35

*Originally posted by dez250 *
**Wayne, let me say one thing since you run an off-season competition. Would it be easier for your team to make Brunswick Eruptuion 2004, 2005 etc… larger to fit 200 teams if they wanted to attend or would it be easier to make a fair way to pick only certain amounts of teams to attend. think about that please and think of the logistics behind an event that you want to hold 1000 teams or so compaired to an event to hold 350 teams or so. i think personally FIRST might beable to let more people in if they had more people to help work at the event…

~Mike **

Mike- it WOULD be easier to expand BE to fit 200 teams if they wanted to come. Seriously. I’d love to do it- especially at $4000 a pop. Unfortunately I don’t get that response to our event.

I honestly believe that FIRST could expand the field for Nats. The underusage of the Houston fields is an example. They could have had 5 fields active there as it was and had room to add two more. The championship field sat idle all tournament. But, despite being told we “outgrew Disney”, we cut the field to less than we had in years past.

It is ludicrous to me that we are trying to reach every kid in every HS in the country but have no visible plan for expansion of the Nationals.

As for volunteerism- Mike, you know that I do so and have my team do so as much as we can. I know of dozens of people who would be happy to work with FIRST, have offered it in the past- and many of us DO work at our regional. What more can we do?
I suggested at one time that each regional offer a volunteer group to man a field at Nats. Got a better idea?

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE FIRST and devote much of my life to it these days. Probably much more than most. But FIRST can be improved and is not infallible.

I think the willingness to bring the teams who havent attended Nats into the field is highly laudible. But there should also be a mechanism to keep the large numbers of "B"grade teams who have helped build FIRST annually in the mix too.

We simply need more slots for the Nationals. It CAN be done. There is nothing impossible here.

WC

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#36

OK sorry Wayne, i misunderstood your last post, i thought that you were bashing the organization you and us all love by using the eligibility criteria as a way to say no to teams not being let to go to Nat’s. Just as you prob know as i was at I.R.I., i have and will travel to work for people and for first to get comps and events going. i see your point and agree with it that we need more teams there so we can even out the competitions more and have more fun. but i just don’t think it will happen soon where first will be able to let 300-500 more teams attend, i would love it but i don’t think it will happen. the reason why i don’t think it will happen, is because of volunteers. as you know along with others, when it comes to people to work events first doesn’t have the largest amount of people jumping the gun. i wish more people would sacrifice one or two weeks a year to work at the competitions as a volunteer, because that will be the only way we can get more fields so more teams can attend. my team personally had at least half of our members if not more who attended Nat’s this past year volunteer for first, and it didn’t effect the teams role at all over the week. now i bet we could get more teams out there to send off one or two people to help volunteer but they aren’t doing it cause they don’t get anything tangible in return. i want to say something here that may offend some of you but i am going out on a branch and saying that i bet less then 10% of people who are active on a team thats not a mentor or adult have volunteered or worked at a first event before, now how can we get that number higher?
~Mike

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#37

Hmmmm. I would bet that number is lower. I’d say 5%. Dez, I realized something odd about my views on all the stuff you talked about. I’ve always looked at FIRST volunteers and thought “oh man, that would be cool to do” - even though they were just resetting the field or queuing teams. What I realized is that despite my envy, I’ve never really looked to figure out how I could become one of them. I guess I always felt at a distance and just assumed that I couldn’t do it because I was just a kid or something like that. Maybe then the problem is that we just need to get the word out a little more. Granted they now have members of teams inspecting robots and at some regionals (like St. Louis) they ask anyone who can to come help take care of things like resetting the field when they have time (I didn’t have time:( ). Perhaps FIRST could put out a notice after the build period that it’s looking for volunteers and start registering people after they’ve been hooked by the building, but after they are so busy that they can’t think about it. The problem may be something else for others, but I think that if you get every coach to push the idea of volunteering or just start pulling in more people through friendships and word of mouth - the numbers might be higher.

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#38

A quick suggestion:

Everyone needs to re-read Ken Leung’s post before they fire off a post that is based on a poor, or incomplete, understanding of the new qualification criteria.

Many of the above posts indicate that one point is being missed about the new system: under the new criteria, once a team attends the Championship Event they “go to the back of the line” (ie. reset to Tier 1) for the following year. Thus, teams will continually cycle through the tiers, bumping up one level each year until they attend again.

Historically, approximately 40% of the teams that eligible to attend the Championship actually choose to attend for any given year. Combine this with the prior point, and the projected growth rate in the number of FIRST teams for the next several years, and do the math. You will find that every team should be able to attend the Championship at least once, and in many cases twice, within the four-year academic career of the student members of the team.

-dave

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#39

*Originally posted by SarahB *
**I also really don’t like the extremely limited amount of time given for teams who qualify during the season(which is almost everyone under the new system). 2 days is just not enough to get permission from the school district, raise the money, etc. **

Yes travel arrangements in short time periods can be a pain (my team last year had two and a half weeks from winning a regional until leaving for championships). But as for raising the money, couldnt a team just raise the money as if they are going and then if they do qualify they are ready, and if they dont they have a head start for the next season.

Being on a rookie team I know this years chances are slim, but we are fundraising and finding sponsors as if we are going.

Allison

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#40

*Originally posted by Allison K *
**But as for raising the money, couldnt a team just raise the money as if they are going and then if they do qualify they are ready, and if they dont they have a head start for the next season.
**

For some teams its hard enough just raising the initial funds required to register that trying to raise the money for nationals as well when they have have a slim chance at qualifying isn’t really possible. With the extra motivation of qualifying, these teams might be able to push their sponsors for more money and maybe do additional fundraisers, but all these take more time than is allowed under the new system.

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