2004 Championship Eligibility Criteria!!!

#41

*Originally posted by SarahB *
**For some teams its hard enough just raising the initial funds required to register that trying to raise the money for nationals as well when they have have a slim chance at qualifying isn’t really possible. With the extra motivation of qualifying, these teams might be able to push their sponsors for more money and maybe do additional fundraisers, but all these take more time than is allowed under the new system. **

While it is hard enough to raise money it’s not going to get any easier because you’re going to Nationals, save for some sponsors different mindsets. My team isn’t sure if we going to the Championship but we’re planning fundraisers to do whether or not we make it. Money can’t hurt and if your team isn’t motivated to do work no matter the competition you might want to evaluate how things are done I’m not saying you have to go out and get every available cent, but there is no reason to sit around doing nothing after you raise necessary funds. Now if you don’t have time to raise money after making registration that’s fine, but then don’t complain about not having enough time after qualification to raise money.

#42

*Originally posted by SarahB *
**With the extra motivation of qualifying, these teams might be able to push their sponsors for more money and maybe do additional fundraisers, but all these take more time than is allowed under the new system. **

A couple of the teams that I have worked with, the primary sponsor said that if the team qualified, they would cover the costs…see if you can work something like this out with your sponsor…

#43

*Originally posted by M. Krass *
**This seems very unclear about how the tiered system operates and that makes me anxious.

As Ricky mentioned, is it that a fraction of the open spots available each year are designated to be for any one tier? That is, there’d be 20 open spots for Tier 6, 20 for Tier 5, 20 for 4, etc.? Or, is it that the entirety of the open spots are made available for registration on a tier by tier basis? In other words, Tier 6 teams are given a week to register for, say, 150 open spots, then tier 5 gets access to what’s left for a week, etc.?

Then, if it gets to Tier 3 which contains, say, 80 teams and there are only 40 slots available, it says there’ll be a lottery to determine eligibility. Well, how does the lottery work and when will teams be notified?

I’d like for this to be clarified. **

This has been boggling my mind for 3 days now, FIRST Team Support has an email in on it, hopefully they’ll get back to us soon. Because if it is that case that Tier 6 gets 20 spots and so on, then TIMS will be a mess on 10/22 as the Tier 1 teams duke it out for a very limited number of spots, also it could change a lot of travel plans, as if we can get in as a Tier 1 team, we will not attend a 2nd regional.

As for making last second payments, and travel and all that good stuff, there’s nothing really that can resolve that, unless you push the Championship back from the last weekend of regionals, which would cause more date havoc. If your team really thinks they have a good chance at qualifying at a regional, you need to get of your logistics set before your regional, as in where your $4000 is, who you’re gonna call for travel (its all in the connections :stuck_out_tongue: ) and who from your team is going to go. We decided that if we qualify at a regional event this year, that only a very small portion of the team (less than 10) will attend in Atlanta. And we will have $4000 set aside for it, if we don’t go, then thats $4k for next year.

#44

The issue with increasing the size of championship isn’t an issue of space. There’s plenty of space no matter where we would go. The real issue is in regards to dealing with more teams than they have in the past. The championship is already a logistical nightmare. FIRST has enough trouble managing it as it is. I’d hate to see how the management would go if it got even bigger.

I believe the response I got when I once suggested just making the championship bigger was “See this pen? Stab it in my eye.” (Team Forum, 2001)

Matt

#45

When Dean Kamen was at RIT two weeks ago, he talked about the direction that FIRST is taking.

To put things in perspective, 26 teams attended the orginal FIRST event in '92. It was held in a HS gym. That was the only event held that year.

The goal of FIRST is : (Everyone should KNOW this) to have a team at EVERY HS in the US within the next few years.

How many HS are there in america? 10,000? 20,000?

Are we going to have a championship wit 10,000 teams attending?! Obviously not.

So here we are, in between those original 26 teams at a HS gym, and the near future with 10,000 or more teams.

FIRST is looking ahead. We cannot put on a big enough championship for every team to attend now, or every other team.

If we have 1000 teams this year and a 300 team championship, then less than a 1/3rd of the teams can go. Once we get 1200 teams then every team can only goe once every 4 years.

once we get to 2400 teams, then once every 8 years.

Dean pointed out that allowing the championship to grow beyond 300 teams, does not add anything to its purpose. A 400 team regional does not fullfill its purpose any better than 300 teams - once you have filled a whole stadium…

Ohhhhhhh! WHAT?! wait a minute… The Championship has a PURPOSE?

and the purpose is NOT to have as many teams attend as humanly possible?!

whats going on here? What IS the purpose of the championship?

What is the purpose of FIRST?

are we trying to establish which HS/sponsor can build the best box stacking, ramp climbing, ball collecting, goal dragging machine in the world? Is that what FIRST is trying to promote?

I encourage eveyone to sit down, have a cup of tea, turn your computer off for a while and think about this for a while: Why are we here? why are we doing this?

If you think traveling with your team has some special reward, then by all means - sign your team up for the regional at NASA in florida this year, or the one in southern california, or the one in toronto, or NYC - by all means take your team on the road

go somewhere different every year - nothing is stopping you.

To put things into perspective, how many professional football teams are there in the US? and how many get to play in their championship (the superbowl) ?

TWO!

there is a reason behind the criteria for the championship [hint: FIRST is NOT a robot building contest]

What is the purpose of FIRST then?

#46

The Tier system is a great idea; however, way it is presented leads to some confusion. As I read it, the system is just steps to obtaining a list of teams that qualify:

Step 1:"All teams will be classified in a Tier (ie. Tier 6 equals six years since attending a Championship or last attended in 1998; Tier 2 equals two years since attending or attended in 2002). "
-The teams in the higher tiers are eligible until the point that the number of teams in a tier is greater than the number of available spots left. At this point we move onto step 2.

Step 2: “If the number of teams in a tier is greater than the number of available slots, FIRST will use a lottery system for teams within each tier to determine eligibility for the remaining open slots.”

  • All of the teams in the tier in which #teams>#slots left will be eligible if they are selected by the lottery.

Step 3: “The final determination will be first come/first serve until all available openings are filled. A wait list will be maintained for any openings that become available after the close of registration. Typically 10 to 15 openings occur during the Competition season.”

  • This step is the unclear one. How would there ever be a first come first serve basis? If a lottery is held to fill all of the remaining slots why would there be more slots? If it is to fill the drop outs, then is the first come, first serve only within the tier that the lottery was held? If anyone could clarify this will facts from FIRST or the eligibility document that would be great.

The tier that the rookies are has also been a question in this thread. I would assume that they are in Tier 1 and not tier 6 as some people have suggested. If they were in tier 6 then winning the rookie all-star award would mean nothing as far as making ineligible rookies eligible. Can anyone officially clarify this also?

Eric

#47

Also, I don’t believe I have gotten an answer to my question:

Say a fourth year team has never been to the CE, what tier would they be in?

#48

*Originally posted by Nate Smith *
**A couple of the teams that I have worked with, the primary sponsor said that if the team qualified, they would cover the costs…see if you can work something like this out with your sponsor… **

This wasn’t about my team(chances are we won’t ever go to nationals again, and money isn’t the issue), I was speaking more in general. I remember this season there were many teams just unable to come up with the money in time. I agree that many sponsors would cover the cost if the team qualified on merit, but the problem is getting that money in time. With only two days(only one business day), it would be very hard to negotiate such a thing in time, especially with the bureaucracy in many companies.

#49

they have it set up this year so theres an extra week from the last regional to nationals…
~Mike

#50

how do other HS teams manage the flexibily in playoffs and championships?

if your football team wins all its games, and goes to the state championship, that money comes from somewhere? and they dont know if they are going until a week or two before the event, right?

FIRST teams and sponsors will have to find a way to adapt to the growing pains we are experiencing - if you cant goto the championship this year, hopefully your sponsor can find a way to set aside some funds for next year.

#51

Frankly, I love this new system and I think this makes it fair and just. But I don’t like having all '92 teams automatically go, that is just dosn’t sit well with me.

#52

*Originally posted by JosephM *
**Frankly, I love this new system and I think this makes it fair and just. But I don’t like having all '92 teams automatically go, that is just dosn’t sit well with me. **

Okay.
Why?

They are 6 teams… SIX, this is a drop in the bucket, and doesn’t significantly affect “the numbers” either way.

Without these teams, there would be NO FIRST, there would be NO Nationals, there would be NO 384, and you would just be another bored HSer who has a vague idea about what enginerding is, and thinks he might, maybe, possibly want to get into it.

19, 45, 126, 190, 191, 250

They are NOT all the best teams in FIRST. Many of them would NOT qualify every year based on performance.

But… they were here FIRST. They laid the groundwork so that we can be here today.

This is FIRST’s way of saying thank you, their way of saying “we remember”.

So… jeez Joe, what about this possibly “doesn’t sit well” with you?

This quote struck me… everyone should read this, and THINK before they comment on this particular issue.

**"I have to add, not only is it an accomplishment to have sustained a team for 13 years

the fact that these teams signed up in '92 for something that was just an idea also deserves special recognition.

Without those original teams, there would be no FIRST. I think I can speak for every team in the Rochester, NY area, that we all owe our existance to the spirit and drive of the Xerox/Wilson Xcats - they really spread the idea of FIRST in this area - and next year we will have a regional here.

The original teams were pioneers in every sense of the word!" - Ken Wittlief**
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=191653#post191653

This whole thing is just a nice gesture from FIRST.
It does not affect things one way or the other.
Why would you possibly be against it?

John

#53

Because his team isnt one of the first 6?

shrug

Cory

#54

I have some of the same uneasiness with them being allowed to remain. I think it resembles to much of a class system, or being elitist. We’ve been here longer, so we can go.

Thats what it appears as to me. I really hadn’t considered the effort to sustain a program for 13 years. That consideration has moved my opinion very near neutral on that issue.

Wetzel

mmm..big band
#55

“All teams will be classified in a Tier (ie. Tier 6 equals six years since attending a Championship or last attended in 1998; Tier 2 equals two years since attending or attended in 2002).”
So wouldn’t a team who hadn’t attended nationals yet be Tier 0?

#56

It is a class system and it’s only getting worse with the introduction of a tiered system. At least the tiered system has potential benefit for every team, though.

I don’t lose sleep knowing that the remaining original teams are getting a free ride, but if I were in a position to decide, things would be arranged differently. But then, that’s true of a lot of things in FIRST these days.

#57

[sarcasm] I liked FIRST much better when there were only about 200 teams, and the championship was held at WDW, and everyone could go, so I think we should cap FIRST at the first 200 teams that were formed, and not let any new teams be created unless a team disbands. What do we need all these new teams for anyway? [/sarcasm]

it occurred to me - how well you understand the new championship qualifications, and how well you accept them

is a good indication of how well you understand what FIRST is all about, and where its going in the next 10 years.

#58

*Originally posted by KenWittlief *
**it occurred to me - how well you understand the new championship qualifications, and how well you accept them

is a good indication of how well you understand what FIRST is all about, and where its going in the next 10 years. **

Please, avoid making generalized statements about “What FIRST is about” because, honestly, what it means to you probably has little in common with what it means to me. It affects people in positive ways, and I think that it’s really, really dangerous, myopic and limiting to say that there’s any one reason why anyone should be involved in this program.

If someone disagrees with or challenges the “Championship Eligibility Criteria,” and they voice those feelings, as far as I’m concerned, they get what FIRST is about.

Your mileage may vary.

#59

FIRST is an internation program, and it really does exist for one specific, well defined reason. EDIT: the purpose of FIRST was defined by its founder, one person.

And that one reason is why many people are devoting their personal time, and many corporations are donating millions of dollars, to individual teams, and directly to FIRST

If people are participating in this program for ‘other’ reasons, then FIRST will be divided, splintered, pulled in different directions, there will be arguments and contention.

I dont think im being myopic by saying that FIRST has a single, well defined purpose for its existance.

#60

*Originally posted by JosephM *
**Frankly, I love this new system and I think this makes it fair and just. But I don’t like having all '92 teams automatically go, that is just dosn’t sit well with me. **

Without the 28 original teams, FIRST as we know it wouldn’t exist.

It’s true that founding teams don’t get a free ride in pro sports (otherwise, my Wings would be in the playoffs every year…:)). But the competition in FIRST has always been secondary to the learning experience. The six remaining teams have much to offer from their experience, especially to teams in their first year.