I think the difference here is in 2019, it’s very easy to see if the other team has climbed onto the HAB or not. Regardless, having more information on the scoreboard would not have helped this situation, as it still relies on the referees to input the data in a reasonable amount of time.
Its very easy to see if a robot was climbed in 2018. Its not about the status of the robot, its about weather the points have been counted into the score yet or not. Until we have conformity among refs to follow the rule, we need visibility on things like this. And until we have the FMS transmitting it to the driver station, all we have is the scoreboard so it needs to be on the scoreboard.
I dont really understand what you mean by the second point. If I look up and see 96 points and a robot sitting on level 3, has that climb been counted or not? What if I assume it hasn’t so I make a risky move to try and break 108, even though I don’t need to and lose because of it. You have to have something to bridge the disconnect between the field status and the score OR fix it on the ref side. I’m just saying the ref thing will never happen so lets be as transparent as possible on the field side.
In order to not make the risk decision, you have to be sure that the points have counted. Agreed. And as the system currently works, the only way to be sure that the points have counted would be to have the ref input the climb and display it in some way on the scoreboard. But that still relies on the ref to input the climb in a timely manner. Having an empty climb spot on the board is the same as having no climb spot on the board for making strategic decisions. Having an empty spot up there is not enough information to make a decision on whether it has counted.
I should say I tend to agree with you, and in the case of there being information in that spot, now you can make some strategic decisions. But it wouldn’t have helped the case you presented from 2018. I also agree that the drivers need all the information possible to make in match decisions.
That doesn’t make sense. In one situation I know FOR SURE that it hasn’t been counted into the current score and in the other I’m playing Schrodinger’s climb.
I get that you want to have perfect information at all times. I’d really like that too, but I doubt that drive teams could actually make much better decisions when given so much information on the scoreboard. I looked pretty closely at live scoring data last year, and it turns out that you need a very large lead at the end of the match to be confident in your win. Even if we take the displayed score at t = 0, you need roughly a 60 point lead to be 99% sure that you’ll win the match, which means the swing between “guaranteed win” and “guaranteed loss” is about 120 points. So even the 25 point swing you get from an additional climb is only worth ~20% of a win, and that’s not even accounting for all the extra uncertainty you have at t=10s remaining when you’d need to make such a decision.
I just don’t think point-counting with <15 seconds left in the match is a very useful exercise when there’s so much uncertainty surrounding the score. Maybe you’ve got a better drive coach than me, but adding all this information to the scoreboard would have minimal effect on my coaching strategy.
As a Game Announcer, I watched the week zero events with trepidation as to how to explain the scoreboard to:
- The teams on the field.
- The mentors and scouts in the stands.
- The casual viewer, either visiting or online.
Being able to see the Real Time Scoring (This is a volunteer position this year, just like Lunacy!) is useful to parse the flow of each match.
How accurate this aspect works should improve during a competition.
Watch this match and pay attention to the referee and scorer on the left, but only a referee on the right:
On the other side of the field, there appears to be only one referee, and two scorers.
During the endgame, the Red Alliance HAB scores are recorded with ~3 seconds left, even though 58 on Red had the HAB 3 climb at 35 seconds into tele-op.
Blue Alliance scores were not visible until the reveal.
So, what you get is this at t=0:
Final result screen reflects the three Blue HAB 1 Robots (+9)
It also provides useful match information regarding how many Hatch Panels (minus the null panels) were placed, as well as Cargo.
Sandstorm points of three crossing robots (9) plus 3 more for the Robots on each alliance that started on HAB 2 for a total of 12 points.
I am wondering about the sharing of the screens between the referees and scorers.
I find this display visually busy, but still useful.
As time goes on, I think we will get used to it. I think Scouts may find it meaningful for Sandstorm performance, but they have to grab the data during the match.
Endgame performance HAB climbs may not show up until the final reveal screen.
I can work with this and will try to direct my commentary towards the casual viewer while acknowledging the deeper understanding of the game challenge by teams.
The work of a Game Announcer is not easy.
As a scorer this year, I also find it odd that the scorers and referees appear to not have separate panels, which leads to some refs not having a panel. I am also confused that one scorer is alone while the other side has two scorers.
There are 4 refs and 4 official scorers on the field at all times. A backup ref and scorer are on break. Each pair of ref/scorer share a panel.
To those wondering about volunteers at the Official Week 0, the event was mainly staffed of volunteers from the host team (see their team shirts). You may also have heard one of the announcers mention how he normally is a ref but will be an official scorer at an event too. Assuming from that he’s not normally a GA or MC, it seems the team just threw people in positions they were comfortable in with minimal training. I would not judge official quality or quantity of volunteer roles for a district/regional this year based off this single event.
Also in the past we have seen FMS displays and sounds from the Week 0 event being temporary (and even prior years data), so I would not be surprised if any of the displays or sounds change for the full season.
Looks like they’ll be prioritising the audience - looks clean and straightforward. I think I prefer this to the other one, but it does leave out climbing points entirely - maybe the thought process was that it is obvious to see on the field, like others in this thread said?
Also, the new one looks pretty close to the one @bvisness made, without the climbing points on the side, and with some things flipped. I probably would have preferred that one, but maybe it looks a little too crowded to others. Nice of them to credit him
I’m disappointed by the complete lack of Hab points on the new scoreboard, I think they went too far over concerns from the table.
I like it.
Sad that it’ll make my eventual real-time win probabilities worse , I can deal though
RIP GameDay CV.
I’m a big fan. This one is way cleaner. The lack of HAB isn’t too big of an issue IMO because it’s obvious on the field and it can always be shown on the post game score summary.
I really wish they either aligned the team numbers vertically to the center box display, or just fit them to the height of the alliance score cell height. This odd in-between rustles my jimmies, but the overall display looks better. I still have no idea even after watching Week 0s whether each side of the rocket icon on screen represents the total state of each rocket though, if anyone wants to fill me in
Looks like left and right are each of the rockets - in one of the example pictures, one side on each alliance is 6/6 (a full rocket) and they both had the ranking point, so it couldn’t be a total between the two rockets
I also kind of think they went a bit too far by getting rid of the HAB points. I thought @bvisness laid that out nicely in his original design. But overall it’s much cleaner and easier to understand. One thing that still confuses me a bit is the left and right rocket designation. The values are defined based on the position of the scoring table, is the scoring table always set up in the same orientation to the field for every event?