4WD with 4 motors

Posted by Justin at 1/15/2001 11:34 AM EST

Other on team Blue Lightning Alumni Association from RWU sponsored by FIRST-A-holics Anonymous.

Hello,

A team I have had some involvement with is considering a 4WD system for thier robot. They are also considering useing 4 motors. My question is, what are the odds that say the van door…or power wheels motors can be made to play nice with the drill motors? I’m envisioning them jamming the sticks and the drill motors going a lot faster then the power wheels. I applogize if this is a fairly naieve/novice question.

-Justin

Posted by Dodd Stacy at 1/15/2001 12:01 PM EST

Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

In Reply to: 4WD with 4 motors
Posted by Justin on 1/15/2001 11:34 AM EST:

: Hello,

: A team I have had some involvement with is considering a 4WD system for thier robot. They are also considering useing 4 motors. My question is, what are the odds that say the van door…or power wheels motors can be made to play nice with the drill motors? I’m envisioning them jamming the sticks and the drill motors going a lot faster then the power wheels. I applogize if this is a fairly naieve/novice question.

: -Justin

Just gear the motors such that all wheels have (nearly) the same free speed over the ground. You can even use different size wheels if you want, in order to get the overall gearing right.

Dodd

Posted by Josh at 1/16/2001 3:06 PM EST

Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.

In Reply to: Re: 4WD with 4 motors
Posted by Dodd Stacy on 1/15/2001 12:01 PM EST:

: Just gear the motors such that all wheels have (nearly) the same free speed over the ground. You can even use different size wheels if you want, in order to get the overall gearing right.

: Dodd

This is just a comment, and maybe an ignorant one, but wouldn’t 4WD with 4 different motors suck a little too much battery power?

Josh
“I never memorize anything i can look up” -Albert Einstien

Posted by Dodd Stacy at 1/16/2001 5:06 PM EST

Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

In Reply to: Re: 4WD with 4 motors
Posted by Josh on 1/16/2001 3:06 PM EST:

: : Just gear the motors such that all wheels have (nearly) the same free speed over the ground. You can even use different size wheels if you want, in order to get the overall gearing right.

: : Dodd

: This is just a comment, and maybe an ignorant one, but wouldn’t 4WD with 4 different motors suck a little too much battery power?

: Josh
: “I never memorize anything i can look up” -Albert Einstien

No.

Dodd
“It helps to know what you’re looking for, though” - Anon

Posted by Josh at 1/16/2001 7:34 PM EST

Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.

In Reply to: Re: 4WD with 4 motors
Posted by Dodd Stacy on 1/16/2001 5:06 PM EST:

So i know for future reference, could you explain why. I can’t seem to figure out why 4 motors would take the same amount of power that 2 motors does.

Josh
“If I were an animal, I should wish to be a platypus. I mean, how cool would that be. You walk into the bar, stroll up to the counter, lean to the girl next to you and say, ‘Hey baby, I’m a platypus.’” -Anonymous

Posted by Justin Stiltner at 1/17/2001 12:52 AM EST

Student on team #388, Epsilon, from Grundy High School and NASA, American Electric Power, Town of Grundy.

In Reply to: Re: 4WD with 4 motors
Posted by Josh on 1/16/2001 7:34 PM EST:

: So i know for future reference, could you explain why. I can’t seem to figure out why 4 motors would take the same amount of power that 2 motors does.

: Josh
: “If I were an animal, I should wish to be a platypus. I mean, how cool would that be. You walk into the bar, stroll up to the counter, lean to the girl next to you and say, ‘Hey baby, I’m a platypus.’” -Anonymous

Well It depends on a lot of factors but basically you have 4 motors pulling 25% of the load each insted of having 2 motors pulling 50% of the load each. So depending on the motor used and its torque and other factors it could be possable to have 4 motors pulling less amperage than just 2. It would also lessen the load on the motors (as a whole) and might help to prolong the life of the motor.

That is what I think anyway.

Justin Stiltner
Team #388
Epsilon
Grundy Va,

“if it doesent fit the first time… get a bigger hammer”- just about everybody at one point or another

Posted by Dodd Stacy at 1/17/2001 9:35 AM EST

Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

In Reply to: Re: 4WD with 4 motors
Posted by Justin Stiltner on 1/17/2001 12:52 AM EST:

Josh,

Your question was a large one, and my response too short. I apologize for that. Justin provides the basic answer. The power that it takes to push the robot around over the floor is determined by the robot’s drag and speed, not by the motors themselves. The motors (however many are working on it) simply supply the power that the robot needs.

Think of riding a bicycle at a constant speed over rolling terrain. As you go from the flat to an uphill you have to push harder on the pedals (supply more torque to the wheels) at the same rpm, so you are supplying more power. Why? Because gravity - and the fact that you elect to go uphill against it - increases the load that you must satisfy. Even though you are an “engine” of, say, 1/3 HP capability, the amount of power that you actually deliver is determined by the terrain and not by your strength. If you add a lightweight 1/20 HP electric motor and battery to the bike, you can reduce your pedaling power input, but you and the motor together will provide the same total power as before - just what is demanded by the terrain.

The gnarley stuff comes in when you start looking at whether the individual motors are normally operating in a zone of torque and speed where the EFFICIENCY is high, the ratio of mechanical power output to electrical power input. At stall, with high motor torque but zero speed, the mechanical power output is zero and the motor is drawing a lot of current - high electrical power - so efficiency is zero. At free speed, mechanical power output is again zero because no torque is being delivered - the motor is running unloaded and free - so efficiency is again zero. When the motor(s) is(are) loaded by the robot somewhere between those extremes, you achieve greater than zero mechanical power output and efficiency. In this range there is a maximum of power output and of efficiency, maybe at the same loading and maybe not.

I’ll quit there before getting into too much trouble. Your question has many facets.

Dodd

: : So i know for future reference, could you explain why. I can’t seem to figure out why 4 motors would take the same amount of power that 2 motors does.

: : Josh
: : “If I were an animal, I should wish to be a platypus. I mean, how cool would that be. You walk into the bar, stroll up to the counter, lean to the girl next to you and say, ‘Hey baby, I’m a platypus.’” -Anonymous

: Well It depends on a lot of factors but basically you have 4 motors pulling 25% of the load each insted of having 2 motors pulling 50% of the load each. So depending on the motor used and its torque and other factors it could be possable to have 4 motors pulling less amperage than just 2. It would also lessen the load on the motors (as a whole) and might help to prolong the life of the motor.

: That is what I think anyway.

: Justin Stiltner
: Team #388
: Epsilon
: Grundy Va,

:
: “if it doesent fit the first time… get a bigger hammer”- just about everybody at one point or another

Posted by Anton Abaya at 1/20/2001 12:00 AM EST

Coach on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NONE AT THE MOMENT! :(.

In Reply to: Re: 4WD with 4 motors
Posted by Dodd Stacy on 1/17/2001 9:35 AM EST:

i woulda told you to build a prototype…hehe…

-anton

Posted by Ken Leung at 1/16/2001 8:55 PM EST

Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.

In Reply to: Re: 4WD with 4 motors
Posted by Josh on 1/16/2001 3:06 PM EST:

: This is just a comment, and maybe an ignorant one, but wouldn’t 4WD with 4 different motors suck a little too much battery power?

It all depense if you are willing to use those juice from the battery onto a strong drive train. If you are going to have a fully motorized robot that will do everything, then you want to watch out for how much juice each part of your robot use up, and might not able to afford another set of motor on the base. Don’t do it if you only have battery power for 1/2 of the game. And you will have to watch out about charging batteries between games. If you end up in the finals, the games are going to be much more compact in between, and you want fully charged battery every round. So if you are draining a lot of battery every round, it might be dangerous that you might run out due to the time needed to fully charge a battery, although you can ask other teams to help you out.
On the other hand, if all your robot want to do is pushing and maybe one or two more function, then I say GO AHEAD! A strong AND fast drive train is always welcome in this competition. There are many cases out there where teams choose to use two motors or other factors that let them consider four.

So to answer your question, yes it will suck a lot of power from the battery, but it’s not too much if you have spare power.

By the way, are you serious about using 4 different motors~? or do you mean two set of two identical motors?