6 WEEK CRUNCH TIME = ENOUGH REAL WORLD DEAN-O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FIRST General Forum
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Posted by KeithL at 1/8/2001 6:04 AM EST

Other from the CHAOS131 alumni. What will the future bring?..

Yo Dean-O! (you’re not reading this anyway) It seems like no one in the FIRST community wholeheartedly likes this year’s so-called “competition”, me first and foremost. I see some people are thinking, “well, FIRST knows what they are doing, this drastic change must be a good idea”, while in the back of their heads they know something doesn’t seem right.
Well guess what, something isn’t right, there is no question that FIRST has messed up. Yah, they’ve made the balls bigger this year, but they’ve also lost a lot of them if you know what i mean. Dean should be taking into consideration what the community wants in the competition, what makes it more fun and exciting to us, not some idea that pops up in his head that he thinks will somehow make us more aware of what the real world is like.
WE LEARN ABOUT THE REAL WORLD THROUGH THE BUILDING PROCESS. Teamwork, time management, planning, setting goals, etc. THE COMPETITION IS WHERE WE HAVE FUN AND ENJOY WHAT WE DID WITH OUR REAL WORLD SKILLS. We don’t want to sacrifice the fun and excitement of the competition. We don’t learn real world skills in just a few days of competition, we learn it during our six week building period. Come on Dean, you should know that, LET US HAVE OUR HEART POUNDING, CROWD PUMPING, HEAD TO HEAD COMPETITION BACK! Let us be happy!
So what I’m saying is that Dean should pay more attention to what his community wants, and keep in touch with us, the ones who should matter most to him.
Is there anyway our ideas, opinions, criticism, appreciation, etc. can get through to him? Could we somehow get him to read these awesome Delphi forums? Perhaps with denim persuasion techniques!?!? Maybe then, at the 2002 unveiling we will say, “wow, how are they going to top this competition next year”, not, “well sigh, I gueeeeess there is always next year”.

-Keith, New CHAOS 131 Alumni

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Posted by Erin at 1/8/2001 6:55 AM EST

Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

In Reply to: 6 WEEK CRUNCH TIME = ENOUGH REAL WORLD DEAN-O!!!
Posted by KeithL on 1/8/2001 6:04 AM EST:

Keith,

While your comments are always welcome, by me, they are currently not necessarily appreciated. Last year, I was the first person to find the downfalls of the game, but I wasn’t around anyone who could explain it to me. This year, I was with my team, and Ken Patton (with Norm Peralta on the phone via kickoff) along with my teammates and other GM and Northern staff, well, we were presented the kickoff celebration by video. We deciphered the game like it was an algebra problem. And personally, I think that maybe you would have found out, too, by sharing it with others, that it is actually kindof cool. But maybe you are still attached to 2000? Some people have a problem with that. I thought as an alumni I would, but I didn’t. In fact, I LOVE THIS YEARS GAME. Yeah sure, it has downfalls, but I think it will be cool none the less.

Oh yeah and by the way, I don’t think “Dean-O” and one of MIT’s respected mech. eng. professors along with countless engineers could have been wrong. But maybe you are. Where is your degree?

Erin
“The first person who really likes the game?”

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Posted by Nate Smith at 1/8/2001 7:42 AM EST

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

In Reply to: Enough real world, Keith.
Posted by Erin on 1/8/2001 6:55 AM EST:

One thing that popped into my head yesterday as I was thinking of how to explain this year’s game competition…and I thought that while in the past, the competition was similar to the head-to-head sports, this year seems to be more similar to a golf tournament…while you don’t directly compete against the other teams, thereby eliminating defense, you’re still competing against everybody for the best score…just my thoughts…

Nate

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Posted by Jason Iannuzzi at 1/8/2001 9:18 AM EST

Engineer on team #11, Marauders, from Mt. Olive HS. and BASF, Rame Hart, CCM.

In Reply to: Want a real-world tournament comparsion to this year’s game?
Posted by Nate Smith on 1/8/2001 7:42 AM EST:

Have you ever watched a round of golf on TV? Have you ever watched a round of golf on TV and thought “wow, that was really exciting?”

I’m sure quilting tournaments are cool too, if you are into quilting.

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Posted by Fran at 1/8/2001 11:00 AM EST

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Texas Instruments/R.S. Machines.

In Reply to: Re: Want a real-world tournament comparsion to this year’s game?
Posted by Jason Iannuzzi on 1/8/2001 9:18 AM EST:

Does anyone remember the discussions last year about the “sissy” problem that FIRST gave you and how it would not be exciting? Well by the time you guys did regionals and nationals it sure seemed so exciting that now everyone wants another round of that type…well I have faith that FIRST knows what they are doing and you will be challenged and when you see it happen it will be exciting just different…and next year things will change again(the only given in a FIRSTer’s life) …I can’t wait to see the variety that will appear this year.

Fran

: Have you ever watched a round of golf on TV? Have you ever watched a round of golf on TV and thought “wow, that was really exciting?”

: I’m sure quilting tournaments are cool too, if you are into quilting.

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Posted by Matt Leese at 1/8/2001 1:28 PM EST

Other on team #73 from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Rochester Institute of Technology.

In Reply to: Re: Want a real-world tournament comparsion to this year’s game?
Posted by Jason Iannuzzi on 1/8/2001 9:18 AM EST:

: Have you ever watched a round of golf on TV? Have you ever watched a round of golf on TV and thought “wow, that was really exciting?”

: I’m sure quilting tournaments are cool too, if you are into quilting.

Well, if you want to compare this to quilting tournaments, think of this way. I’m into robotics and this is a robotics tournament. By your logic, this is cool. :smiley:

Matt

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Posted by Jason Iannuzzi at 1/8/2001 2:44 PM EST

Engineer on team #11, Marauders, from Mt. Olive HS. and BASF, Rame Hart, CCM.

In Reply to: Re: Want a real-world tournament comparsion to this year’s game?
Posted by Matt Leese on 1/8/2001 1:28 PM EST:

Indeed it will appeal to you, and even myself, but to the average spectator, it will most likely not.

I don’t see this one being much of a non-FIRST crowd pleaser.

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Posted by Matt Leese at 1/8/2001 3:48 PM EST

Other on team #73 from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Rochester Institute of Technology.

In Reply to: Re: Want a real-world tournament comparsion to this year’s game?
Posted by Jason Iannuzzi on 1/8/2001 2:44 PM EST:

: Indeed it will appeal to you, and even myself, but to the average spectator, it will most likely not.

: I don’t see this one being much of a non-FIRST crowd pleaser.

That implies that the point is to please the non-FIRST crowd. What do we gain by doing so? Sure, it can be said that it will encourage people to join FIRST but I don’t think that just the excitement level of a game will convince someone to suddenly start a team. It’s also not going to impress sponsors because they should realize that the whole point is about engineering. So why does it matter how exciting the game is to someone else? We’re not trying to sell television rights here. This isn’t the NFL. There’s no money to be made by selling tickets. So it doesn’t matter how exciting it is to spectators. Those of us who already like it will watch the competitions. Those who aren’t interested won’t.

Matt

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Posted by KeithL at 1/8/2001 8:23 PM EST

Other from the CHAOS131 alumni. What will the future bring?..

In Reply to: Excitement doesn’t matter
Posted by Matt Leese on 1/8/2001 3:48 PM EST:

Isn’t the purpose of FIRST to Inspire more and more people into Recognizing Science and Technology? Oh wait… For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. How is a game that is not pleasing to non-firsters supposed to do that? Don’t we want to get more people involved? Just a thought.

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Posted by Matt Leese at 1/8/2001 8:29 PM EST

Other on team #73 from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Rochester Institute of Technology.

In Reply to: Re: Excitement doesn’t matter
Posted by KeithL on 1/8/2001 8:23 PM EST:

People don’t get involved with FIRST because the game is cool. They got involved because they think the robots are cool. At first glance, that is what people see. Ask yourself and anyone you know who has ever done FIRST and I doubt any one of them will say that it was because of a cool game. It’s just not the way it works. Most people just find it amazing that high school students are building robots let alone that they play a game. So if you think this is going to kill our growth rate, get over it. The excitement level of the game is one of the least things we have to worry about.

Matt

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Posted by bill whitley at 1/8/2001 8:41 PM EST

Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.

In Reply to: Re: Excitement doesn’t matter
Posted by Matt Leese on 1/8/2001 8:29 PM EST:

The highlight of my season are the competitions. Why? The excitement! I love watching the matches! I love meeting the people, and seeing the bots! I love watching the matches! I love the excitement! I love watching a robot get pinned early, only to come back later and score the winning points. That excitement is what got me so into FIRST. Excitement is what will get us into the spotlight. Excitement will make this mainstream, get us on tv. FIRST needs the excitement if Dean wants to reach his goal of a team at every high school.

Bill

: People don’t get involved with FIRST because the game is cool. They got involved because they think the robots are cool. At first glance, that is what people see. Ask yourself and anyone you know who has ever done FIRST and I doubt any one of them will say that it was because of a cool game. It’s just not the way it works. Most people just find it amazing that high school students are building robots let alone that they play a game. So if you think this is going to kill our growth rate, get over it. The excitement level of the game is one of the least things we have to worry about.

: Matt

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Posted by nick237 at 1/8/2001 9:27 PM EST

Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.

In Reply to: Excitement doesn’t matter
Posted by Matt Leese on 1/8/2001 3:48 PM EST:

How popular do you think Ice Hockey would be if there was no contact between players, and what if at the end of the game all the points were shared except for teams that wore a “red” shirt, they got an extra 10%?
A discused senerio might be " Hey did anyone see the Hockey match finals last night, Killer Smith did a beautiful figure 8 in the center of the Rink and a pirioet " Oh yes and the best part was there was no violence or fighting.
Hockey with harmony and Love.
Lets all have a group hug and kiss a wasted year good bye, not to mention the $63.000 that our team has to scrounge up by begging sponsors to give us each a few bucks in support of a robotics competition that last year depicted two team beating the snot out of each other for control of a ramp and bar.
I will bet many of the teams that joined FIRST this year based on the excitement from last years game were disapointed by this years senerio. I also bet many will not be back in 2002.
The nature of the game is to look a team in the eye and say I won. I want the old system back, amano amano.
I will make one more prediction and that is that FIRST will never have 4 teams together as one again.
Dean must know that the majority of teams are not happy with this type of a game.
Nick237

: : Indeed it will appeal to you, and even myself, but to the average spectator, it will most likely not.

: : I don’t see this one being much of a non-FIRST crowd pleaser.

: That implies that the point is to please the non-FIRST crowd. What do we gain by doing so? Sure, it can be said that it will encourage people to join FIRST but I don’t think that just the excitement level of a game will convince someone to suddenly start a team. It’s also not going to impress sponsors because they should realize that the whole point is about engineering. So why does it matter how exciting the game is to someone else? We’re not trying to sell television rights here. This isn’t the NFL. There’s no money to be made by selling tickets. So it doesn’t matter how exciting it is to spectators. Those of us who already like it will watch the competitions. Those who aren’t interested won’t.

: Matt

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Posted by Robby at 1/8/2001 10:35 PM EST

Other on team #108, The SigmaC@Ts, from AIFL and Motorola.

In Reply to: Re: Excitement matters
Posted by nick237 on 1/8/2001 9:27 PM EST:

Soooo you feel that the proper way to end this is to have your robot do a pirroette in the middle of the field, have a group hug, and kiss? Wait, I think I saw that in the rules… This will be said over and over BUT - You havent seen a match yet. Wait. The excitement will come.

I never saw a game before I joined the team. But you know why I joined? Because of the robot. All I needed to join was see a robot that moved a ball and hear that students built it. I wanted my hands on. No matter what, robots are cool. I’ve had ups and downs on my team, and you know what? Even with college I will still be participating. I do this because I believe in the morals and ethics of FIRST. I do this not only for the fun of “Competition” but also for the people you meet. Where else can I get the chance to talk to brilliant minds who run world famous companies just by looking over my shoulder and saying ‘Hi’?

Also, why is this being compared to a sport? Over and over, the relation is made, but wasn’t it an attempt by Woodie to split them apart by making the ‘Genetic Hangover’ Statement? This is a challenge, not a sport. The goal is to build a machine in six weeks that can accomplish some task, not beat out another robot. One up the other robots by building a robot do-it-all. Not a non-stop robot killing machine. Inspire those teams that you have one-upped to use thier brains more creatively the next year by showing them what can REALLY be done with a robot.

If we keep taking to this habit of trying to make FIRST LIKE the rest of the sports (not a sport in and of itself, different from the rest), what’s to stop the teams from getting paid at one point? Teams from going on strike until they get higher pay? Teams that GET pay?

To quote Woodie: “Society gets the best of what they celebrate”. FIRST is here to change what society celebrates, not help it celebrate what it already does.

-Robby O

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Posted by Jason Iannuzzi at 1/9/2001 8:43 AM EST

Engineer on team #11, Marauders, from Mt. Olive HS. and BASF, Rame Hart, CCM.

In Reply to: Re: Excitement matters, In more than one way of course
Posted by Robby on 1/8/2001 10:35 PM EST:

The only problem Woodie and Dean and even the rest of us have with traditional sports is the over-emphasis on PHYSICAL ability.

Competition makes the world go round, it’s called evolution, and we wouldn’t be here without it. Even this year’s event has competition, there will still be a winner. My complaint, and I think some others here agree, is that the “competition” is very indirect, and consequently, I think most spectators will find it boring.

I hate to say this, but without the spectators, there would be no FIRST, or at least not nearly has big. Do you think the Board of Directors would have been nearly as eager to join up if they didn’t see a single fan cheering at an event? Most of the comments I’ve read from CEO’s for the past few years have almost always mentioned the incredible surprise that thousands of people could be screaming at the top of their lungs watching robots compete. FIRST thrives on excitement and energy, and a lot of that comes from the crowd.

I think this year was a mistake. I may be completely wrong, but it’s just as possible that I’m not.

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Posted by Robby at 1/9/2001 9:40 AM EST

Other on team #108, The SigmaC@Ts, from AIFL and Motorola.

In Reply to: Competition is good
Posted by Jason Iannuzzi on 1/9/2001 8:43 AM EST:

Why did you join? Why are you still with your team? Did you first see an event before you joined? Was it merely the excitement from random spectators that made you decide to join? Or was it the excitement from TEAM MEMBERS? And why are those team members getting excited and cheering like mad?

Because they know the time and energy put into each and every part of thier robot. Team members cheer if thier robot does great or if thier robot breaks on the field. Team members cheer merely to give thier drivers encouragement to drive thier machine. When was the last time you saw a random spectator walk out of disney world, onto the lawn of the competition, and start cheering like mad?

The people who cheer are the teams. People interested in building those machines will join the teams merely for the fact that you get to build a cool robot. If you joined merely to travel to disney and regionals, to get out of school just for cheering on a robot, why should you still be a part of FIRST? For the most part, you have to do some kind of work on the robot or for the team to make it to most events. At least, thats how some teams handle it.

Teams that have allowed students who did nothing with the robot, who missed meetings, and talked back at teachers, to travel with the team usually dont stick together that well. Believe me, I’ve seen it happen first hand.

I’ve already said the “You havent seen a match” comment. This is HOPEFULLY my last post to this topic because there is no point on continuing it. Build your robot, get out there, try it, and see what happens. Or one should leave FIRST if one truly feel that FIRST isnt serving thier needs. My suggestion would be to go invest thier own money into Battle Bots.

FIRST sets goals to achieve, not feed one robots to destroy.

-Robby O

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Posted by Jason Iannuzzi at 1/9/2001 2:00 PM EST

Engineer on team #11, Marauders, from Mt. Olive HS. and BASF, Rame Hart, CCM.

In Reply to: Re: Competition is good
Posted by Robby on 1/9/2001 9:40 AM EST:

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I can live with that. It’s certainly been a good discussion. I think if noone is asking the questions we’re asking, we’ve become complacent and lost sight of the goal.

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Posted by Robby at 1/9/2001 5:40 PM EST

Other on team #108, The SigmaC@Ts, from AIFL and Motorola.

In Reply to: Re: Competition is good
Posted by Jason Iannuzzi on 1/9/2001 2:00 PM EST:

Well, I can certainly agree with you there. There is only one way to find out. In just over six weeks we’ll see and the “Told You So”'s will be all over this board. Hopefully they’ll be more friendly than hurtful and sarcastic. Enjoy this year as much as possible, wait for next year to be what you want, and see you all then. Good luck.

-Robby O

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Posted by Kate T190 at 1/10/2001 1:46 PM EST

Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.

In Reply to: Competition is good
Posted by Jason Iannuzzi on 1/9/2001 8:43 AM EST:

What makes you think that there won’t still be cheering this year?? I’ll prolly still be screaming my head off and maybe even have my warpaint again… This competition won’t change my mind any about team spirit… It’s something different this year… It doesn’t necessairly change what FIRST is trying to do to the world…

T190 XO
Kate

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Posted by Matt Leese at 1/8/2001 11:33 PM EST

Other on team #73 from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Rochester Institute of Technology.

In Reply to: Re: Excitement matters
Posted by nick237 on 1/8/2001 9:27 PM EST:

I think I may have just come up with a better comparison than to golf: Figure Skating. Figure skating has no head to head competition, has no contact whatsoever, and still manages to be incredibly popular. With the same group? no. Maybe, for once, Dean and company are trying to reach out to a shudder different group of people. Just because it’s not your kind of excitement doesn’t mean it’s not exciting. And as far as wasting money, there’s no way any money is ever wasted on a FIRST Competition. Heck, the most important part of the competition has to do with the part that takes place off the field. That’s why everyone is a winner. Anyone else realize that FIRST has been increasing the number of winners over the past couple years? And remember that they still give out only one Chairman’s Award. 'Cause that’s where it’s at. Please remember what the whole point of FIRST is: to inspire and recognize science and technology. You don’t need to be BattleBots to do that. There’s going to be a lot of competition this year. It’s just not going to be the same as it was before. And that’s okay by me. I can get excited by figuring skating and by ice hockey.

Matt whose really kind of getting tired of people saying how bad this years game is before a single match has been played…strike that…before a single robot has been built…

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Posted by nick237 at 1/9/2001 10:11 PM EST

Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.

In Reply to: It’s a different kind of Excitement
Posted by Matt Leese on 1/8/2001 11:33 PM EST:

I have an idea, how about we just design a robot on paper, submit the drawings and let dean pick a winner.
The winners name could be posted on the usfirst web page and then we can wait for next years game/submission.
A boring game is a boring game no matter how you play it.

: I think I may have just come up with a better comparison than to golf: Figure Skating. Figure skating has no head to head competition, has no contact whatsoever, and still manages to be incredibly popular. With the same group? no. Maybe, for once, Dean and company are trying to reach out to a shudder different group of people. Just because it’s not your kind of excitement doesn’t mean it’s not exciting. And as far as wasting money, there’s no way any money is ever wasted on a FIRST Competition. Heck, the most important part of the competition has to do with the part that takes place off the field. That’s why everyone is a winner. Anyone else realize that FIRST has been increasing the number of winners over the past couple years? And remember that they still give out only one Chairman’s Award. 'Cause that’s where it’s at. Please remember what the whole point of FIRST is: to inspire and recognize science and technology. You don’t need to be BattleBots to do that. There’s going to be a lot of competition this year. It’s just not going to be the same as it was before. And that’s okay by me. I can get excited by figuring skating and by ice hockey.

: Matt whose really kind of getting tired of people saying how bad this years game is before a single match has been played…strike that…before a single robot has been built…