624 violated H305 at FiT States

Competition Rules/Strategy
#1

A little background before heading into how 624 violated H305.
During quarterfinals in the Mercury division, Alliance 3 lost to Alliance 6 in QF4-1. After that match, 5431, the alliance captain, used their timeout card to allow them extra time to adjust their shooter as they were having shooting issues. When 5431 was on their way back to be field, they had seconds to spare. Due to they having seconds to spare, the lead queuer told the Drive Coach of 5431 that if they were late, they would receive a red card. She didn’t mention which rule it applied to but we assumed it was H305. Either way, Alliance 3 won QF4-2 and QF4-3.
Now, in semis, 624, the Alliance Captain of Alliance 2, called a timeout due to one of their motor “smoking”, this is what I was told. 624 was sitting in queue fixing and replacing that motor but the timeout timer ran out. Their alliance partner 3847 and 7616 was already on the field when the timeout timer was over but 624 was still working on the bot. 624 continued to work on their bot for what looked like to be another timeout worth and they received no punishment.
I don’t think this is fair.

EDIT: I want to also mention, during the time after the timeout, the refs and FTAs we’re just sitting underneath the hub waiting. If Alliance 2 received a red card, Alliance 3 would have earned 15 district points for that and 5431 would have qualified for worlds.

I am an alum of 5431 but this post was made with no bias at all

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#2

I’m curious what you expect to come of this thread. I understand that you think this may have been unfair, but what would you think should have been done? The consequence for delaying a match (presuming you send a representative) is being disabled or not let on the field. Are you saying this should have happened? (I certainly wouldn’t)

Disclaimer: I was not at TXCMP, I was watching the live stream.

Since they were running matches back and forth between the fields, the turnaround time was significantly longer, so the matches were not significantly delayed.

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#3

Yes, I am just mentioned what should have happened but didn’t.

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#4

Lead queuer has no authority to give cards. If anybody that isn’t the Head Ref threatens a card, ask to speak to the Head Ref at the next opportunity. If the Head Ref is threatening a card, ask the Head Ref (via question box) what’s going on, because there’s something rotten in the state of [event].

H305 would apply if nobody showed up from the team, including humans, before the match started. You could leave the robot back in the pits, put a human on the field, no card.

The time-remaining part is H301, for which the penalty is being bypassed (or, as we’ve seen, being turned away).

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#5

So just to clarify, you think one of the SF matches should have been played without 624 allowed on the field?

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#6

When they were working on the bot in queue, there was no other match going on. I remember just sitting on the cart, watching them furiously work for at least 5 or so minutes - right after we had literally almost ran to the field from the practice field since our shooter was being wonky. If we had known 624 was going to take that extra time, we could’ve used that time as well to continue fixing our shots.

#7

It sucks being so close to qualifying for worlds. I bet you’re writing this post out of frustration, but I don’t think it’s achieving what you want it to.

First things first:

For what it’s worth, you need to win the series to receive the points, not just a single match (for example, 6377/3735/7121 did not receive any points for going 1-2 in qf vs Alliance 3).

Now, besides this, the main point. Would you have rather won a 2v3 or on a red card, or lost a fair 3v3? Do you think the extra time that you feel cheated out of would have made up the 52 or 46 point deficit you lost your SF matches by? And do you feel that calling a team out for what you have deemed as a specific ‘rule violation’ is particularly kind to their students (especially if you’ve not had the ref/head ref training to know how to call said cards)?

And, most importantly, I think you should do some reflection about if you would have made this post if you watched it happen to any other team that wasn’t 5431? That is what would indicate whether or not you are truly biased. You should also take a minute to think about how this reflects on your former team and if the lead mentors would have approved of this post going up.

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#8

In order to receive points for a ‘win’ in the tournament, the team must “win the playoff series”. There are no points awarded if the team does not advance, even if the alliance wins a match.
https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.net/frc2022/Manual/HTML/2022FRCGameManual.htm#_Playoff_Round_Performance

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#9

I just want to apologize for this thread. I worded the my post completely wrong and it was from a bit of frustration. I meant to have this post as a question and what I thought should happen from discussions I made and looking through the manual but clearly, I didn’t read the manual correctly. I have nothing against the alliance 2 of Mercury division as they played amazingly and they deserved their place as finalists of Texas States. Again, I want to apologize to everyone that read this post and to the FRC and FIRST community

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#10

I completely agree with this. First and foremost, most of our team members from my knowledge as a lead on my team did not know of this post going up until it came to my attention a moment ago. This is my take on this; I am no mentor, but I am one of the manufacturing leads in my team and I can certainly understand the frustrations of working on a robot only for it to have issues right before a match. I was there when my teammates worked on the robot during our timeout, and I was there waiting for 624 to finish fixing their bot as well. On both sides, the frustration of fixing a bot before a match is really tough and I can definitely understand the time given because it is Graciously Professional to have a fair game with a full team against a full team. Me, as well as my team, would much rather play against 3 fully working robots, rather than winning on a technicality or playing a 2v3.

I can understand the frustrations of our alumni, however a post like this does not achieve anything, and questions like these should probably be asked during a competition by the people there. More importantly, 624 is an incredible team, and I am happy to have the pleasure to play against them and lost to them fairly.

Overall I hope this post was a question post rather than a post meant to call out another team. When I was in the match with our drive team, all of us did not challenge it as it is not in the spirit of FIRST or our team.

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