A Change in this year's Spirit of FIRST?

FIRST General Forum
1

I have grown up through High School in the FIRST program, and I have seen dramatic changes in its spirit and the feel of the competition since I was a freshmen.

In my 4th year in FIRST, I have noticed something different in the spirit of the newer teams, many of them seem not to see the true intent of FIRST.

I think this largely the result of the shortened kickoff, while Dean and Woodie made their speeches concerning FIRST yet again this year, it has changed greatly from those hour lectures of yesteryear.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed not having to sit through a 3 hour kickoff, but the only reason I could really make out Gracious Professionalism was because I have heard Dean and Woodie’s speech in the past years.

It seems to me that the burden of bringing newer teams, (and even some members of older teams) to see the values of Gracious Professionalism, (namely in the threads discussing robots) lies more firmly with the veteran teams sharing their views of gracious professionalism.

Has anybody else noticed this shift in the nature of the people posting on the chiefdelphi boards (certainly not the whole FIRST community)? And can you see that perhaps the reduced emphasis this year on the true point of the competition may have resulted in such behavior?

2

yes i agree and like you eluded too the job will lie in the example of vet teams to relay the purpose of first. I personally am not looking at this as a bad thing I am willing to accept the challenge as part of Dean’s “homework”

3

I think I know what you mean…

People trying to subvert the rules and such, all those discussions about using disable to control the robot during autonomous, or getting in those our robot is better than yours arguments.

It seems to me that g. p. is the same thing as common decency. You help other people, play by the rules, and compete in a sportsmanlike manner.

4

Patrick,
I agree,
Boastful, overconfident, arrogant, RUDE, disrespectful. These are the terms that come to mind when I read through some of these posts. I can’t remember when Dean said, “build a Battle-Bot & talk smack,” but he must have because that is what I seem to be reading.
Most people feel good about what they have done. That is the foundation of FIRST. I have no problem with people thinking or knowing their robot is better than somebody else’s. You are supposed to. Please just try to imagine your grandmother reading what you have to say. As my grandmother used to tell me, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.”
Please try & use constructive critisizim when looking at somebody else’s design.
As far as I can remember in my 4 years, nobody has gone undefeated in every match. Even last years National Finals went to 3 matches.

5

Boastful, overconfident, arrogant, RUDE, disrespectful.

I agree and I even take part of it.

Its called COMPETITION. Think about it.

stuff like that can still take a great part in gracious professionalism.

realize also, this is ON THE INTERENT. people can be more rude here than in real life because they dont directly affect them.

i can be a real ? online, because i dont have to look you in the face.

in real life however, im usually quite nicer.

but…anyway.

6

I presonally haven’t seen this great change in philosophy of veteran or rookie teams. 2001 people couldn’t wait to tell you how fast they could balance two goals, but in reality some of it was true, but most was fiction. This is just one example I can think off of the top of my head.

Mainly I believe it is a lot of misinterpretation and mind games to try and get you hyped about a person’s robot. The way I see it no one really knows anything yet unless they have been to a scrimmage, and even then nothing is set in stone. So are people talking “smack”? yes. Has anything ever really come of it in any year? not really.

7

there has always been a lot of braggadocio surrounding the competitions. That’s the result of lots of hard work and pride in accomplishment. As long as it is not degrading the efforts of others it is just talk.

The change I see is the move away from the competitions being a fun social event. No more giveaways, music, friday party- sounds like the fun is drained somehow. What will the losing teams get out of this year’s events? At least if you lost in the past you still had fun with the friends you made on the way. I wonder what the 75% of the teams not winning will remember from this year’s events? I hope it is positive.

I know our guys will have a good time. Hope you all do too.

WC

:cool:

8

I personally have noticed that lots of people seem to be focusing on the “We’re gonna beat you” aspect this year through posts and such. I mean, yes it is a competition… but I’m not there to win. If we win, that’s great, but if not… I learn from other teams for next year and in turn still win. I mean you go to a competition, and as a rookie I met TONS of people who I’ll see again this year. The competition teaches you, and if you lose, you just simply cheer for the teams that one and say good job. Last year at nationals, we were in 42nd place in our division and we knew we were outta it, but we didnt complain or anything, we just shouted as loud as we could “WHO DAT BBAT?” I just think too many people are worried about dominating others and saying they’re “better” which isn’t what this is all about at all. I’m there to learn, have fun, and see the various ways everyone went. Then to cheer on EVERYONE. If a team breaks down, you go over to their pits and help them, not laugh and say “we rule”. That’s my 2 cents.

9

Well I’m prepared to be the scape-goat (or flame-goat) for Battlebots, so here’s my opinion.

From what I’ve heard, although BB is a competition, there is a lot of “gracious professionalism” that goes on behind the scenes, and even in front of the cameras. It is a competition and the object is to win, but you don’t win any more by obliterating your opponents bot after it has been disabled. Also, rumor has it that the same level of assistance, part sharing, etc. is found in the BB pits as the FIRST pits.

My definition of gracious professionalism is knocking someone down during a match, but being the first to help them up once the match is over.

10

*Originally posted by f22flyboy *
**My definition of gracious professionalism is knocking someone down during a match, but being the first to help them up once the match is over. **

Well said.

11

This thread reminds me time this summer when I was completely silent and didn’t make any post on the CD forum, and a post I did about it. It’s buried in the forum some where, and it was so nicely called a “novel” by JosephM :P.

Anyway, here is some part of it:

I used to read threads, and usually ended up shaking my head from time to time thinking, “Why are people doing this?” At the end, after months of frustration and disappointment, I took the easy way out and ignored most parts.

But then I start thinking, how can I believe in the benefit of the forum when I don’t even go in there anymore? How can I recommend them to fellow FIRST participants when I don’t even want anything to do with those places anymore? As a mentor in FIRST, am I really doing others any good by introducing them into such a hostile environment where they only learn to talk the same way with the same attitude?

I remember the good old times when I was eager to go into the forum and see people talking about interesting issues. I was too afraid to post replies, and was silently reading posts after posts learning whatever I can to prepare myself to enter one of the most exciting places in FIRST community, arming myself with basic knowledge of just about everything, and making sure I sort out my own line of thinking/feeling before I form my voice. And it was a wonderful experience. I ended up posting 2nd most at the 2001 season, and made lots and lots of friends here and there online or at competition. I heard many similar comments from lots of those friends. And I thank all the other posters on the forum for showing me how wonderful the CD forum is.

But now… somehow, all of those seems to have faded away. Well, I guess I can’t say all, but definitely a lot of them.

I start thinking about the role I want to take in FIRST and in other places, and I remember how much fun it was to inspire people, and teach them new things. It was truly exciting when I show the students the competition, the robots, the forum and chatroom, and maybe other neat stuff in FIRST. I really believe education and inspiration is the path of life I want to take.

Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, and posted the first word in one of the forums, we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.

So start posting and show a good example to others ;-). We have a job to do, if we want something to happen the way we want it to. I always though, “if you want something bad enough, you can work hard to make it happen.” Talk to people, have interesting discussions, show your voice in the good ways you are supposed to. Make an example, and start influencing and inspiring others. There are lots of teams out there waiting to benefit from the CD forum just the way we benefit when we started.

It is an important task we are taking on right now, whether you realize it or not. The subtle ways in which we express ourselves form a voice in the FIRST community that others look up to and learn from.

Its going to take a while… But, I really do hope we can restore this forum and the chat room to what they are supposed to be… Places for intelligent discussions about this competition, really good ways to meet others with similar passion, and a fun learning experience where we can learn, share, and inspire ourselves and others.

And that continue to be my wishes…

Please note that, it is not up to yourself and yourself only to make things better. After all, the forum and chat room are formed by many people when they wanted to share their experience with others. Not anyone of us can be expected to change the way everybody acts… But get this: if EVERYONE of us want it enough, it will happen.

12

I agree fully.

Something has gone awry this year in FIRST. I think more teams are concerned with winning and their robot that they don’t even stop to think about the kids on their team, or the learning experiences of others. While ChiefDelphi Forums have an incredible amount of information to pass along to teams, they have somehow been infused with comments that should never be said under the influence of the spirit of gracious professionalism (no fault of their own).

What went wrong? How can we stop this?

13

The thing I find so ironic is everyone talks about how things have changed in FIRST and ever since I have been on these boards I always see poster listing in their sigs how their team did in what regional, what their seeding was, and how many awards they got.
So what is so different this year?

14

Yeah, about a year ago, I posted something kinda like this (although in a completely unrelated thread).

Summarized, although not sounding as elitist (which I didn’t mean):

  • FIRST wants what may be a contradictory set of goals: expand to every high school in the US, and still keep its unique flavor (epitomized by “gracious professionalism”).
  • If you expand to every high school in the nation, you’re going to bring in the bad as well as some good. The mere existence of this thread proves that despite Dean’s and Woody’s best efforts, this is unfortunately the case.
  • If you don’t bring in new people, you become a exclusive society of elitists (think popular snobbish-society or ivy-leage-school stereotypes).

So, the question is this:
how do you strike a balance?

I think the problem is the veterans are looking for FIRST to be a utopia, while the word ‘Utopia’ literally means ‘nowhere.’

15

*Originally posted by amandabean *
**What went wrong? How can we stop this? **

The best way isn’t to say “no please don’t do this anymore”, but to set an example of what’s right.

There are plenty of us making posts that say “this is what Gracious professionalism is all about”, and “you shouldn’t critize others needlessly” (Andy Baker write the best of them, in my opinion), but those post themselves doesn’t teach others what’s appropiate.

Some where along the line, we got tired of posting like the way we used to, and all the new members doesn’t have anything to look up to. At the same time, a lot of old members either quit FIRST, or stop visiting the forum like they used to, which amplified the problem even more.

Anyway, done with analyzing the reason. Onward to the problem solving part.

As I said, the best way is still to set a good example of good posts. Whatever we say will teach the new members what’s good and what isn’t. Once they see a lot of good posts with interesting discussions challenging people to think and learn from each other, they will get addicted and will never turn away.

Replying to soezgg:

It is too bad that you cannot see beyond the COMPETITION part of FIRST, and understand some of the truely amazing thing that’s going on. Over here at Bay Area in California, we have an organization where the teams come together as a group, and figure out what we can do to help each other out, and make the experience much more worth while.

All the WRRF teams got so much more out of it because they see pass the COMPETITION part you so dearly hold onto, and share and learn from each other. We hold workshops for all the teams about fundraising, drive train and motors, robot designs, team building, rookie advice, and we put together post season competitions. Can you say you’ve done similar things?

Also, I disagree that because this is the internet, you can disregard other’s feelings and say whatever you feel like. This forum happens to be one of the most valuable part of FIRST, and if you don’t feel like respecting that, then please post your comments else where.

16

I must agree with Ken L.

Though many variations of this statement have been said, I will say it anyway.

FIRST teaches us about life, and how to better it for ourselves and others.

Why does NASA donate so much to FIRST teams? Because in bettering the lives of the participants, many of the participants will eventually better the world.

FIRST is much more than a competition. It is a program to make ourselves better, and in the process, make the world a better place.

17

In defense of soezgg, there is a similar thread to this in robot showcase in which similar views were expressed and then recanted. This overwhelming reaction to negative posts has sent a clear message on what will and will not be accepted in the FIRST community, and I congratulate you all.

18

*Originally posted by Ken L *
**I remember the good old times when I was eager to go into the forum and see people talking about interesting issues. I was too afraid to post replies, and was silently reading posts after posts learning whatever I can to prepare myself to enter one of the most exciting places in FIRST community, arming myself with basic knowledge of just about everything, and making sure I sort out my own line of thinking/feeling before I form my voice…
I start thinking about the role I want to take in FIRST and in other places, and I remember how much fun it was to inspire people, and teach them new things…
Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, …we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.

So start posting and show a good example to others ;-)…Make an example, and start influencing and inspiring others. There are lots of teams out there waiting to benefit from the CD forum just the way we benefit when we started.
**

Nicely said, Ken.
I don’t believe there has been that much of a change in spirit, it is pretty much this way every year. New members (not necessarily rookie teams) are overloaded with this new concept of gracious professionalism. They hear about it on this forum and others and certainly from the FIRST docs and staff, but can anyone really know this concept from just reading about it? It doesn’t hit home until it is experienced. Those who know what I am talking about have seen it firsthand. That time when you explained your robot design or strategy to a competing team member who didn’t expect it. That incredulous, almost double take look, when you explained that you are required to give them that info. That look that said “what planet are you from?” until they realized you were serious. I see it at every event I attend, and not from students but adults as well.
Keep up the good work, it is making a difference out there.

19

*Originally posted by Ken L *
**Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, and posted the first word in one of the forums, we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.

It is an important task we are taking on right now, whether you realize it or not. The subtle ways in which we express ourselves form a voice in the FIRST community that others look up to and learn from.
**

To me FIRST is a microcosm of real life. There are difficult people everywhere. Each person learns about Gracious Professionalism or not at their own pace. I certainly learned from others’ examples in my life outside of FIRST, and now inside of FIRST. Life can swing back and forth, and so can the Gracious Professionalism displayed on the forums. I am in control of myself. I can practice Gracious Professionalism myself, no matter what others around me do or say.

My daughter, captain of our team, keeps remarking that our team hasn’t had ANY fights this year. A HUGE improvement over last year. The improvements were a process, not an arrival at a sudden destination of Gracious Professionalism. We can continue that process on these forums, even thru the appearance of backward steps.

I in particular have experienced this year the FIRST camaraderie and Gracious Professionalism I’d heard about from teams other than our own. I’m experiencing a better experience in FIRST than our family experienced last year. shrug I’m not experiencing the negativity that others are experiencing and expressing on this thread. I’m very grateful for the difference FIRST makes in our family’s life.

20

*Originally posted by SuperDanman *
**

  • FIRST wants what may be a contradictory set of goals: expand to every high school in the US, and still keep its unique flavor (epitomized by “gracious professionalism”).
  • If you expand to every high school in the nation, you’re going to bring in the bad as well as some good. The mere existence of this thread proves that despite Dean’s and Woody’s best efforts, this is unfortunately the case.
  • If you don’t bring in new people, you become a exclusive society of elitists (think popular snobbish-society or ivy-leage-school stereotypes).

So, the question is this:
how do you strike a balance?
**

I think trying to strike a balance is trying to reach utopia.
I don’t think Dean and Woody wants to “keep out the bad”. They want to spread the experience - including the experience of learning about Gracious Professionalism.