A Corrupt FIRST?

FIRST General Forum
1

This in now way reflect on my team. These are my opinions and mine alone.
I have begun to notice some corruption in the FIRST organization.

First off in FTC the rules support one company, Lego, more specifically TETRIX. The rules limit what you can use to mainly TETRIX products , no lookalikes, teams are only aloud certain amounts of things like square tubing or other metal unless it is made and bought from TETRIX.

Second in FRC, I can only speculate where our outrageous fee of $5000 goes. Dose first release this information? Its not the kit, there is little of value in there. Its not the places the events take place, those are schools or sponsors of FIRST. Where dose this money, that to frequently destroys teams, go?

Any thoughts? Please no negative comments or unsupported “Facts”.

2

Isn’t your entire post an unsupported “fact”?

3

Quick suggestion: Before making unsubstantiated claims and wondering where the registration fee goes, look at http://usfirst.org/aboutus/content.aspx?id=78 for annual reports going back to 2003. You will notice that the first item is an audited financial report.

And as for claiming the KOP has little of value: Motors aren’t exactly cheap. The Kitbot isn’t exactly cheap. The software in the KOP is NOT cheap, especially in non-student versions. With the prices of copper these days, the wire isn’t exactly cheap. I’m not sure I want to know how much the batteries cost.

4

I dont think so. The part about FTC is clearly written in the rules. The second part about FRC is more a question.

5

For what it’s worth, the FTC competition has always restricted parts to one vendor, even before Tetrix was involved. The intent of this is that the parts are supposed to be relatively inexpensive and standardized, so all teams have an even and accessible playing field. This is the primary draw of FTC and similar competitions - machining resources aren’t needed and the only constraint relative to other teams is your critical thinking skills.

So FTC forces a monopoly by design. It definitely is a valid way to execute the above goal - in my experience with the program (granted, back in 2008) it worked pretty well!

6

Actually, before looking up any information regarding FIRST’s use of the funds and material support that they may receive, your time would probably be even better spent looking up the formal definitions of “libel.” Because if you are going to make inflammatory unsubstantiated charges of corruption and implicit accusations of criminal activity, you are going to find yourself on the wrong end of discussions with some lawyers on that topic pretty quickly.

-dave

.

7

It’s in the rules. Why not use that same argument about FLL? After all, their rules are much more restrictive: Thou shalt only use LEGO parts, nothing more, nothing less (with minimal marking/string exceptions). Clearly, that’s a sign of a corrupt partnership existing to make money.*

Or maybe it’s that way so that everyone has an even playing field, and teams with $20K and a 3-D printer and/or a CNC can’t build special adapters to attach stuff that teams with the entry fee and kit money can only dream about.

*Not my actual opinion, in case you were wondering. I much prefer the other alternative I presented.

8

Your claim of the KoP being “cheap” financially has already been discussed, but what the important thing about the KoP is that each piece of equipment we pull out of their is used in the real world. The knowledge gained from using these items at all (which would most likely not even be available to you if it weren’t for FIRST) is nothing close to cheap, it’s priceless.

EDIT:
Example, over the summer I interned at the University of Miami using LabView and the skills I gained from FRC programming to analyze blood vessels as they contract and expand.

9

While I in no way want to give credence to the idea that FRC is subject to financial mismanagment, it is worth noting that the financial reports get no more specific than showing several million dollars poured into FRC. My point is not that they should or shouldn’t be more specific than that, but that the average student wouldn’t learn anything of value by looking at those resources.

And as for claiming the KOP has little of value: Motors aren’t exactly cheap. The Kitbot isn’t exactly cheap. The software in the KOP is NOT cheap, especially in non-student versions. With the prices of copper these days, the wire isn’t exactly cheap. I’m not sure I want to know how much the batteries cost.

It’s worth noting that at least some amount of the Kit of Parts is donated. The KoP has an estimated value greater than its price tag, however.

10

I was afraid of this…

I feel FLL is not a major “issue” because of the age group and the small cost lego parts are.

I think “leveling the playing filed” is more of and excuse for first then a legitimate reason to allow mainly only tetrix. And it is definitely not cheaper to buy tetrix the to make your own parts and limits the creative process.

The corruption was a question not an accusation. And I am not a lawyer nor do I care much what one would think.

11

It’s that estimated value that I was getting at. If you were to buy the KOP off the shelf, it’s worth a lot of money. Are parts donated? Sure. This keeps cost down. But some parts need to be bought (or are bought at a discounted price), and for 1800 kits, that’s a lot of money even for one or two items.

12

The only thing I find a little odd is how when dealing with FIRST in Michigan $5,000 registers my team for a KOP *and *2 Michigan District events. However when dealing with FIRST $5,000 only covers a State Championship.

I’ve heard from the powers-at-be that the astronomical cost had something to do with Unions - something along the lines that all the audio/video people were from one union that signed a contract with FIRST.

I agree though, transparency is always a good thing - especially with non-profits.

13

I think what OP is asking for is for someone to disprove what appears to be the situation from his experience. Instead of instantly denouncing everything OP has observed why not instead show OP where he has gone wrong. Showing someone where they have gone wrong is much more useful than accusing them of making outlandish accusations.

14

Heres another question. Why do we have to buy the kit? How many veteran teams use a majority of whats in the kit. I know we didn’t.

15

Ya and to go to that Michigan state champion ship you have to pay another $4000, and then first national competiton another $5000. Thats over $14,000 when you include the cost of the robot and gas. food, and hotels. A lot to ask a team to fundraise.

16

The posts’ title and accusations in the original post is over the edge, but I still think this post can be turned around in to fruitful discussion.

Glancing through (read: scan through, not a in-depth reading) the audited report, it feels just like a tax return form. Just a lot of numbers and a lot of room for things to “hide” under.

For instance the operating cost of FRC in 2009 was $25,259,844. The revenue from “Program Registration Fees” was $15,535,666. “Contributions and Grants” were $15,900,906. The surplus at the bottom of that table was $506,264, which is a WHOLE lot less than 2010’s figure.

Those seem like valid numbers, and then I read on page 8 “Unrestricted Contributions recorded as program expenses” which for FRC in 2010 was nearing $4 million. That could be anything. Lobbying, bribing, corrupting. :ahh: (sarcasm, please)

I’m not on the same boat as the original poster as to say that the way FIRST uses money is in any way sketchy, but I think we could allow for some imagination and “creativity” (non-slander and non-libel!) and use it as an opportunity for discussion. FIRST does handle a lot of money.

I know that they have tried to help the teams out every year, by lowering the registration fees by a $1000 for example from the past. I don’t really think FIRST is in any way corrupt. I also have no basis of reason to believe or even imagine so.

But this discussion is interesting! Like those price breakdowns lists of iPods/Wiis/etc they have online, maybe we could go through the KOP and price how much FIRST pays/(gets donations) for them and investigate?

Whatever it is, I guess the most important thing is to keep it all straight in facts and keept it free of libel.

17

It is possible to ask a question in such a way that it is an accusation rather than a question. This can be done in a number of ways, including language that can easily make the blood boil (i.e., “outrageous”).

As for not caring much what a lawyer would think, let’s assume for a moment that FIRST saw this thread. Let’s also assume that they took it as an accusation, more specifically, a false and damaging accusation. Let’s also assume that they don’t just go after you, but they decide (in spite of your disclaimer) that the team thinks the same way, and name them as well in any lawsuit. What’s a slander/libel lawsuit award run these days, $50K easily? Plus legal fees? That’s why you’d want to care what a lawyer would think.

18

How does this post and the title of this thread not reflect on your team, Jacob? You are reflecting on your team. What do you think a team is? Is a team something that you step away from or push aside anytime you choose to voice an opinion? If that is your idea of what a team is, you might want to spend some time thinking about and evaluating that mindset. You might also consider asking your mentors to help you out with questions like this before you state your opinions in Chief Delphi that draw a response from Dave Lavery in the manner in which you have done. Mentors are excellent resources and usually have a bigger picture/understanding of FIRST or can find knowledgeable people who do.

Jane

19

I would like to know where you got those figures from?

It seems as if you are being quite critical of the Michigan system for money. While it does have it’s ups and downs, I can tell you as an outside team, your getting to go to 2 districts, while I as a NE Team am only going to 1 regional for what I believe is the same prices (I apologize if this statement is wrong in advance).

I’m not putting you down for the point your trying to make, everyone is entitled to there own opinion and free speech, and if you want to say FIRST is corrupt that is your own right. But please try to back it up with actual facts at least. I don’t think I would have as big of a problem with this argument as I do right now if both sides were using actual cold hard facts and good numbers/statistics.

My $0.02

20

In that case i would have to destroy first. If it comes to that I am sorry to those, my self included, who have enjoyed first.