All District FIRST?

FIRST General Forum
#57

Perhaps having teams declare what District they will participate in at registration would make this work. You automatically have to attend 1 District event for whichever District you select and should you qualify at the end of the season that would be the District Championship you would attend. 2nd (and 3rd and 4th) District events could be in any District and you would accumulate points there via whatever point sharing system is decided on. As an example suppose you have two teams in Iowa, one in the northern part of the state and one in the southern. One declares as part of the Wisconsin/Minnesota (WM) District while the other is part of the Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Missouri (INKM) District. Both can attend the Minneapolis (WM) and Kansas City (INKM) District events (the 2 closest events to both teams) but the northern team can attend the WM championship in Minneapolis while the southern team can attend the INKM championship in St. Louis, which are the respectively closer District Championships for both teams.

This also allows for teams in far flung places that aren’t likely to ever have more than 1 event (Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico) to always attend their local event regardless of what District they decide on that year.

I’m in favor of letting teams declare their own District, then they can change Districts if new events are created closer by or the District Championship moves. For the far flung teams they can travel and see a bit of the country this way too :slight_smile:

I think there has to be a requirement that a team attend 1 District event within a District to be eligible for that District’s Championship. Otherwise there is the possibility of teams gaming the system by attending weaker events in one District (say MAR) to gain eligibility for another District’s Championship (say FiM) without ever having to compete against the teams from that District prior to the Championship. Since every District Championship should be in a population center that will have a District event as well it’s unlikely that a team would have a District Championship close to them but have 2 District events closer to them from a different District.

#58

Correct. Also they only have to be a volunteer for two days of the event. I have also heard of a few exceptions, teams only providing 1 volunteer, but for all 3 days (Thursday night load-in)

Also they don’t have to be team members, parents, brothers and sisters over the age of 14, friends, random people, etc. As long as they fill in that they are from #### team in VIMS the team gets credit. I’ve heard of a few instances where other teams have loaned people to other teams for this reason.

#59

You’re a big fan of the extra cost? Yes, we like the regionals, but I think many teams would beg to differ here. If I was in charge of a team and you told me I could pay $5000 for a flashy regional, 9 matches and one shot at eliminations, or pay $5000 for 2 events in high school/college gyms, 24 matches and 2 shots at eliminations, I’d pick the latter in a heartbeat. Money aside, as a student, I would have loved to be able to attend one, let alone 2 regular season events with 40 or less teams, something I’ve never done. The spectacle isn’t everything.

5) The super regional idea is the coolest thing in FRC’s future.
It is starting to resemble the other March Madness…

By today’s prices, a complete season(making it to World’s) in a district system would cost $17,000 in registration alone. Even if the prices go down, the cost of travel could reach thousands per student on many teams. We need to be lowering the entry barrier into FRC, not raising it.

#60

This is a FIRST HQ thing. Check out Jim Zondag’s white paper. FiM wants states to be free.

#61

Doesn’t matter to the teams, it still costs $17 000.

#62

Awesome! Those are surprises I love to hear! Hopefully it’ll be used in more places in the future, 2 volunteers per team is a good place to start. More key volunteers are what is really needed, and that can’t be provided on demand really.

  1. Playing matches isn’t everything either, especially for the teams that had a rough year with the robot they put on the field.

Playing is not always what inspires everyone, sometimes its the theatrics and production around everything that makes it awe inspiring. The best solution is probably to find a more cost-effective way to bring the theatrics to the district model. I feel overall there was too much of a compromise on cost.

  1. If you want to get more funding, the show part really is great for going after money. I’ve seen prospective sponsors turn into actual sponsors much faster at a Regional than a District. It adds to the awe and gives the whole organization a much more professional face. In particular its helpful for raising funding at the event level, regionals wouldn’t cost so much if the events were able to fundraise for themselves better.

I guess the best way to summarize my complaint with the current district model/format/presentation is that it lost too much of the professionalism associated with a regional in order to cut costs of events.

#63

Could someone please explain the Super Regional idea? I’ve heard the term before, I’m just not exactly sure what it is or how qualifying would work.

Also, I highly recommend reading that FiM FAQ whitepaper. It actually got me excited about California moving to district competition in the near future!

#64

My distances were based on the a reasonable “best case scenario,” a team traveling from Sault Ste Marie. You’re right that it gets even worse (and even closer to Wisconsin/Minnesota) for teams further west.

Depends on how long FIRST requires that. As more areas go district, the pressure to keep the cost relatively equal between regional and district teams goes down. And the chances FIRST allows for a reduced cost/free MSC-type event goes up.

Additionally, MAR has a number of grants they award to teams to help them reach MAR championship. FiM may have a similar program.
http://www.midatlanticrobotics.com/mid-atlantic-robotics-grant-rules-application-2/

#65

The Super Regional is the next step between District Championships and Worlds. Basically when the entire country/world has transitioned to Districts, the concept is there will once again be too many teams for the World Championship, and that they will need another layer of qualification to finally make it to worlds. So a team would potentially play 2 Local District Events, District Championship, Super Regional and World Championship (or 5 events!) in order to win Worlds. FIRST mentions that it is very very very far off in the future, and they aren’t even sure if the concept is needed or fully fleshed out… but its a potential.

And I agree, the whitepaper is incredibly helpful and just like we always say “Read the Manual”, anyone who wants to discuss districts should read that white paper, NE’s proposal (maybe updated soon?), and the FiM rules supplement.

#66

Actually, it does matter – A LOT. The fact that FiM attempts to make the MSC a free event each year is important. As more areas enter the district system and this argument is voiced by more and more people it will eventually happen. Yes it costs $5000 now, but it will probably be free within 5 years.

You have a fundamentally different mindset from Fim. FiM is all about getting more playing time for your money and minimizing cost so that the sport can expand. No, not every event is as fancy as a regional, but that’s the point. The big show is the championship which is hallmarked by high quality in both event production and robot competitiveness.

In FiM playing matches is everything. For all the hundereds of hours put into each robot many (most) robots went to a single regional this year and competed for a grand total of 1,215 seconds (20.25 minutes). FiM promises twice the playing time allowing that team that had a rough first competiton, instead of being finished with their season, another shot to improve and compete. This difference can not be understated and is a large part of the reason why Michigan teams are so competitive compaired to other areas of the world.

In regards to aquiring funding individual districts don’t have their own funding. This is umbrella’d by FiM who I don’t believe has ever had trouble aquiring sponsors.

I’m not telling you to agree with me, just asking you to understand the realities of the growing sport and the steps FiM has taken to allow an increasing amount of teams to compete more for less.
Regards, Bryan

#67

To your first point, I would say that the second event is a game changer. For a team who usually goes to 1 regional, if they can’t get their robot figured out by Friday POOF there goes the whole season. If the same team is in a district model, sure, the first district event may go the way of the regional. However, they now have a window of time to work in their own shop to improve the bot for their second event, and hopefully have a good performance, maybe even qualifying for their District championship. I think that is much more inspiring than having a robot that never does what it was meant to do and then going home.

That being said, I think I understand your point better now, and it makes a lot of sense, especially how it relates to sponsors and funding. I think with time, the district system will improve as more areas adopt it and FIRST HQ continues to support it, and will start to get back more of the professionalism you’re talking about. After this season, we’ll have a combined 7 years experience in the system between FiM and MAR, so the new ones won’t be starting from scratch.

#68

I would like to see the statistic on the number of teams who didn’t participate in the elimination rounds during their 1st district but still made it to the State Championship, over the past few seasons. I can’t think of any off of the top of my head. As the # of teams increase, and the # of St. champ. spots being static, it becomes increasingly difficult to make it to the big(ger) dance, almost to the point where a bad 1st district puts achieving states out of reach [yes mathematically still possible since 75(theoretical max pts per district) > 57(FiM cutoff this year) but I’ve never seen a team perform a 45+pt district improvement].

Even without qualifying for states, having the ability to improve and be competitive IS a game changer for weaker teams that turns an abysmal season into an inspiring season.

#69

I really hope not.

Indiana is still too spread out. And with one corner of the state barely populated with teams (SW corner) and the other corner/side devoid of teams (Cincinatti/Lousiville area*), I think the district system isn’t appropriate.

*- I’ll save this for another thread, as I live there and have a few things to say.

Aside from Indy, the state doesn’t have enough teams crammed in one specific area to warrant districts. Kokomo and Lafayette have more than a few, but otherwise, it’s too spread for districts to truly be districts.

I think the current two regional + 3 slightly out-of state regional setup is doing well… maybe a 3rd regional would ease tension. But districts, I’m not feeling it.

#70

Everyone is getting excited about districts since they offer so many advantages to the current system, but don’t realize why the district model works. I’d love to be able to compete twice or more without having to travel 400 miles and budget $5000 per competition, but there are very few places where having districts is feasible. Districts would work in the North East, since there is a high team population density, but as soon as you go to places like the southeast US, things get tricky. If >85% of teams are in one city and there’s less than 50 teams in that city, districts aren’t right for your state yet, and may not be until the region populates more. It’s nice to be able to go to multiple competitions for the same registration price, and only pay $1000 for each additional district event, but unless one city or area has two regionals that are within a 50 mile radius of each other, then districts are far in your future. Try doing what Toronto does first, by having two regionals in the city that are 3 weeks apart.

#71

Playing time is very important to my team. As others have stated, the amount of time, energy, and money spent on the construction of the robot warrant an increase in playing time. Our regional this year gave us 8 matches. When I saw the match schedule, I couldn’t believe it! The parents of my students were not happy and neither was I. We had a difficult Thursday, missed all practice time, and were left with very little opportunity to work with our machine. I’m sure this story is not unique to my team.

My school district has a difficult time supporting a program that costs so much per pupil. When they hear that we are competing against 60 or so other teams for a handful of shots at advancing, and we only get 8-9 opportunities/18-20 minutes of playing time, the program becomes even harder to justify. It is hard to explain this whole 18 minutes of competition with 3 days in the hotel to the AD.

I would support any model that increases playing time while reducing time spent away from school in hotels.

#72

As a one regional team before MAR due to a serious lack of funding, and barely scraping entry each year, I can attest that the number of matches and events for my money is more important than the “snazz” of an event - thats what the regional champs are for. I can see it not making a huge difference to more fortunate teams.

I believe seeing the robot the students put together for the last 1008 hours of their lives succeed is greater than a good sound system and light show in terms of inspiration.

Perfect example, TCNJ this year was a pure disaster for us. Couldn’t get the robot running whatsoever. We used the time while eliminations were going on to figure out what was wrong and come up with a game plan for our next district, which, we won.

With our team being in such a high density area getting sponsors is pretty tough, I’d rather pay 4k for 24 matches at 2 events then play 8 matches with a boston regional setup for the same amount.

NOTE: Wheres everyone getting this 17k figure from? Districts+MAR CMP+CMP=13k, I’m assuming its the same for Michigan.
EDIT: I think I was missing the “super regional” step

#73

^One thing Brandon didn’t come right out and say, but I’m sure he thinks is important, is that more teams get recognition for their hard work at the district level than at the regional level.

When 2495 won the Lenape District in Week 4, they earned the same kind of blue banner anyone in any regional would have earned if they won their tournament. Sure, the team did not win MAR Champs, but they won a blue banner. Whether it’s a district or a regional, winning an event is no easy feat in the tournament or in the Chairman’s room, and their accomplishment was recognized.

There are a lot of really good teams in really dense, strong areas of robot country that may have limitations in funding because they are not providing winning results. I imagine that winning a district is a provides a morale boost for team members and supporters as well as attracts potential sponsors for a team trying to make itself as tough as the established powerhouses.

#74

Adding to recognition (and I don’t know if it was mentioned in this thread), but a District championship provides a tangible, obtainable goal for many teams that, if attending Championships, would have gone based off the previous existence of open registration. We’re not a regional winning level team by any means necessary. But the existence of MAR Championships has enabled us to enter our districts with the logic of, “we need to do this and this and this to be able to make it to MAR champs”

I put the emphasis on what I did because for a team that it is unrealistic to win in to championships for in the traditional regional structure, MAR championships gives an accomplishment-based reward for teams that otherwise would feel no accomplishment/reward based off the regional system(ie. you had to win a regional to make it into the next level of competition-Championships)

#75

Going to completely agree with Brandon here, especially after learning from and working with 2495 this season and 3929 last season, as well as working with many underfunded MAR teams in the area.

I don’t give a crap about the extras at events anymore. It is all about the the inspiration that takes place on the field for me, my students, and the potential sponsors I bring in. Qualcomm reps we brought to TCNJ didn’t care at all about the venue or anything else, they cared about the robots and the kids. More matches do equal more inspiration. Fancy lights and banners don’t.

In addition to this, it is EXTREMELY difficult for new teams in dense areas to find the large amount of funding it would take to go to two normal regionals+travel+lodging.

Full disclosure: I freaking love the current district model in MAR. Sure it has some improvements that can be made, but I completely disagree that spending a bit more money in running them to add some random extra jazz is worth it to the teams who pay to compete in it. The atmosphere of an event is what the teams make it, not what regionals with cool lighting and banners and all used to be.

#76

How is, “We’ll take your $10k and spend it on fancy lights” a more compelling argument than “We’ll take your $10k and expose this to hundreds of additional people”?

I understand that donors want something for their donation, but it seems like you get a lot more bang for your buck in the district model. And there will still be a state championship with the production value of a traditional regional, and the robot quality is way, way better. Are the fancy lights and AV crew worth it if the robots struggle to score a single game piece?

I lived a similar experience to Brandon. In the first two years of 1276 we had a kind of adversarial relationship with the school (teachers kept track of when we left printers on, and other fun pedantic things, and we were very thorough about cleaning up after ourselves). In 2006 we invited the principal to come to our regional, and by a happy coincidence we won. After that, we had full run of the schools tools and they paid our registration fee.

Sign me up FIRSTWA. :cool: