Alliance Request

FIRST General Forum
#21

A small anecdote that shows how you could sell yourself:

We were high in the rankings at Utah and a team came to us to talk about their bot. They told us how they fixed some issues Friday night and if we could please watch their matches. While we didn’t end up picking them, we did watch for them and I thought it was a very good way to sell themselves.

That being said, if you haven’t changed anything, their scouting team probably has already made judgments on you and your lobbying probably won’t have much of an impact.

Good luck!

#22

This is still a good point because of the event size, but 254 was the most dominant robot in 2014. We can’t ignore that factor.

#23

Your best ambassadors is your drive team. Especially if you are looking to be the 2nd pick. They need to demonstrate they know the rules, don’t collect fouls, understand strategy of playing the game, and are team players.

#24

A little bit of advertising can put you on the radar. Asking if you’re on the list will get you knocked down.

What have you demonstrated on the field? Actual, live, match data. Ask your scouts. (If your scouts aren’t scouting your own team, you’re making a mistake. This isn’t the place to go into WHY, but the short version is that it’s a great tool for calibrating your scouting system as well as where you are.)

Then, what you can do is to talk to teams that you think your skill set can complement. Just say, “hey, this is what we have shown, we think we’d be an asset to you guys because of this” and leave it at that. Will some teams ignore that? Sure. But a smart team will check that against their own data (be wary of that check if your scouts inflate your data!), and if they come looking for you, TALK. (Don’t get me started on what happens if you ignore a higher seed that wants to talk to you. Just, don’t.)

#25

I think a tentative consensus is advertise a little if you KNOW you have a particular feature that’s going to match particularly well with a higher alliance that might not be picked up in scouting.

#26

The hope is that the high seeding, picking teams have good scouting. They will be looking at each robot individually, regardless of whether you won or lost, and whether you were stuck with crappy partners or whether you were the crappy partner and were carried by better partners. Good scouting will see through all of that.

Our scouting this year recorded things like: what/how many defenses did you cross? How many low goals did you shoot? How many high goals? Did they go in? How long did it take to line up and shoot? Did you challenge the tower? Scale?

Note that this has nothing to do with your actual match score or win/loss, nor the performance of your alliance partners.

Then in our scouting meeting we categorized and ranked robots into several lists:

  • really good offense bots (fast, consistent shooters, preferably high goal, can cycle 4-8 boulders on their own)
  • really good breaching bots (fast, can get a breach RP by themselves, can go through most defenses without difficulty)
  • really good defense bots (strong, fast, driver knows how to defend)

We were a pretty good breacher so when we made 5th and 6th alliance captain at our two regionals, generally we were looking for good scoring bots to complement us. We were also hoping that we might be picked as the breaching specialist by a higher seeding team, but that didn’t work out - there are a lot of good breachers!

I can tell you that our drive team had things to say about which teams they really enjoyed working with, and which teams were more frustrating. This definitely influenced our pick lists. So play your hardest, but be honest, flexible, communicate with your alliance partners, and show GP at all times. A good team that’s fun to work with may be more desirable than a better team that’s rude and stubborn.

Here’s a tip: scout your own robot. Be prepared to swallow your pride if the numbers you’re seeing aren’t what you hoped for. You will not win friends if you are trying to sell how great you are at shooting, but when I pull up my scouting data I see that you average 2.3 low goals per match.

Advertise only if there’s something new that you think the scouts wouldn’t have noted. On Saturday morning at GTRC we discovered we could open the portcullis with our mechanism. We had never touched it during quals. We told the teams that seeded higher than us, in case it was a selection factor, but kept the discovery quiet to everyone else in case opposing teams would think they could thwart us with it.

#27

This.

Picture it, Peachtree Regional 2011. 2815 is there with none of our college students (one professor popped an exam on all of them), a pretty slim crew, and a robot that was crated without much in the way of hard driving. It shows on the field Friday, when we die or break something in all but one match. I was the coach (by default, basically) and it was pretty embarrassing coming off of two solid robot years. But we keep working through the different issues, and I share the hard-luck story with a few friends on 2415 and 1771 (the latter of which we were partners with on Friday–their minibot won us a match where we broke).

We got to Saturday morning and a match with clear #1 seed 2415, where they ask if we can play defense. We hadn’t had a chance to really work our arm because we kept dying, but we had a three-year driver that knew his stuff. “Suuuure!” We get one clean match off, get the win…and then break in our last match. I’m billed as the resident optimist of any team, but even I knew we had no business being in the playoff rounds. No amount of hard-sell marketing was going to change that.

Yet for reasons I still don’t fully understand five years after the fact, 2415 and their first selection 1771 believed me when I said it was a new issue each time, liked working with us behind the glass, and believed our driving and defense was more desirable than the other 24 teams that were available for them to choose even if we had a glass jaw. Six matches later, we’re going to St. Louis.

Shoot straight, be positive, and sometimes you’ll see your faith rewarded.

#28

Honestly, I see this as a dangerous mindset, and me having that mindset was probably one of the reasons my team wasn’t picked at DCMP in 2015 (that and just not melding well with any of the alliances as their 3rd robot).

I think that advertising yourself can become important when small or new teams are in the top 8 - teams that can’t/don’t/won’t have scouting info. but generally it’s just awkward for all parties involved (since they’ve either already put you in a pick order, or in a do not pick list). It can be worth asking high ranked teams what they’re looking for in a 3rd robot, and then show off that capability in one of your matches.

#29

I was the team representative during alliance selection that year…I still remember hearing you yell “WOOOOO!”, even over all the noise, when we picked you. And we still tell our new members stories of piling random objects (hammers I believe) into your robot to buff up your weight, to play defense. One of our other mentors still has the cockasaurus rex t-shirt!

On topic:

Depending on where you are seeded and how you have performed, you should know if you are going to be a 1st pick or a 2nd pick. If you are going to be a 2nd pick, you will most likely be playing defense or some other utility role. (This year it might be breaching, or maybe you can specialize in doing a solo drawbridge/sally port). Use that to your advantage. Gently remind teams that you can cross that defense by yourself, and can grab a ball, cross the defense, then drop the ball off for your alliance partner to score in the high goal. Or mention how you can add a goal-blocking mechanism to your robot if needed.

#30

Last year at the Pacific Northwest Championships, our team was ranked in the 40’s, and so our team just did a frame per second analysis of our can grabber, which turned out to be the second fastest one there. We went around and showed it off to all of the top teams, and then we were picked up by the three seed as a second pick and we won the event. My advice is to come up with a selling point that could work, be it a strategy, a component, or even a long shot idea and try and talk to the picking teams the day of. The worst that could happen is you don’t change anything.

#31

Alliance request = customized alliance strength “which is good”

I am a firm believer in “advertising” to pre-selected alliance partners. I am not a fan of saying to any team "don’t pick us because we want " I think that is corny and have had that happen to us. We go the other direction and talk to those we want to pair with and limit conversation with those we don’t feel we are a good fit for (for both our benefit)

Face it, there are those you work well with or those that compliment your team in some fashion and there is no shame in seeking a preferential alliance make-up in eliminations. Eliminations hard to win , you need all the help you can get.

We scout every match so our detailed scouting info is valuable to other teams we use that to start the conversation with teams we don’t already know , those that do know us know we do our scouting already, many have had us a partners before too, so they know how we operate and what we bring to an alliance.

I believe in every elimination there are those alliances who are matched and those that aren’t and usually the matched alliances prevail.

The way we do it is if we are captain then of course we choose, if not then based on knowing our bot and knowing all the top 8-12 potential captains , we then visit those that may be a good fit with us and those that don’t match/or duplicate us we probably don’t visit. We talk potential winning strategy and what would win the regional we are at. We then ensure them we can find another team to compliment our new-found alliance strength. Every bot we have selected third ourselves has been solid due to scouting.

This works for us, we usually end up with a strong to very strong alliance…but remember this only works if your team is solid and you do extensive scouting as a bonus. Otherwise why would a captain pick you? "Sell yourselves based on where you actually rank (be honest about your capabilities) " and that will do it…take care of your part and the rest will follow.

Once in a while we “learn” of a team off our radar because they reached out to us… perhaps they had a bad day 1 BUT resolved it and it shows in the rankings climb…I appreciate teams that talk to use to explain “why”, if the data supports it and the story then they all the sudden they make our 2nd day pick list and a few watches the second day.

It is all about “doing your best” and you rely on two other teams so why not try to get the best partners for all three teams ? It makes total sense.

#32

At Rhode Island this year, I talked to the drive coach of the top 5 teams Saturday, and asked them which of two strategies they wanted to see out of our robot. Most picked “breach and ferry”, and GUS wanted to see boulder scoring (we had a good match with them Friday). We got picked by #3 as a second round breach and ferry bot. I think GUS (#2) would have picked us for the same role, if we were still available. Our alliance made it to semifinals where we lost by ~5 both matches.

#33

My advice would be to do as much advertising as you can. There are no downsides if you are not annoying about it, and it has the potential to move your team further up other teams’ picklists. Our team always advertises ourselves to teams that are higher ranked than us that we would like to be on an alliance with, even if we know we are going to be captains.

Advertising yourself can be a bit awkward at first, but it gets much easier with experience. Here is generally how I approach this process:
First, know what you are trying to get out of advertising yourself. Are you trying to be a first pick? A second pick? A third pick (at champs)? Is the team with whom you are speaking a 1-3 seed and likely captain? A lower seeded likely captain? A lower seeded likely first pick? The way to sell yourself is different for each of these combinations.

When you go to speak with them, start by asking to speak with someone on their scouting team (lead scout is best, but not always readily available). Smaller teams sometimes don’t have scouts, in which case you should try to talk with their drive team. If you just talk with some random person in their pit, you are wasting your time. Be polite and respect their time. I have found that teams are generally pretty receptive to talking, but if they are busy or do not wish to speak with you, move on and do not pester them. When you find someone to talk with, make sure to keep their time in mind. If you are talking with a scout in the stands, don’t talk during a match, let them work.

Once you find someone to talk with, start by complimenting their team. They have clearly done well or you wouldn’t be talking with them. Mention at least one specific things you like about their robot/strategy (I wish we would’ve thought of…, it was really cool last match when you…, your … is super slick) but don’t spend too much time on this, keep it short and sweet.

Next, and this is really important, you need to tell them things that they might not know just from watching matches. Bring them to the practice field to show them your scaler, and climb 4 times in a row for them. Bring them to your pit and show them the defensive blocker you are building. Tell them that you will be debuting your scoring auto in the upcoming match, so they should keep an eye out for that.

When you have finished with this, ask them if they have any questions for you, and answer them truthfully. I won’t speak for others, but I value honesty a lot. If you tell me that your team scores 5 boulders basically every match, and our data says you only scored 3 in your best match, you are likely to go down a notch on our pick list.

After that, ask them what they would like to see out of your team in the upcoming matches, and demonstrate that ability if you have the opportunity. However, make sure you clearly communicate with your partners what you will be doing every match.

One more thing, it is okay to mention that you seeded low, but don’t whine to them about your poor schedule and the crappy partners you have been getting, they don’t want to hear it, even if it is true. Own up to your own performance. Recognize the failures and limitations of your robot and explain them.

Finally, here are some common situations and key features to sell yourself on in those situations.

  1. Selling yourself to a 7 or 8 alliance captain. Tell them truthfully how you did in your best match, and explain exactly what went wrong, and how you have mitigated your issues in your poor matches. Remind them they will be up against the number 1 or 2 seeds, and that they really need someone who has the potential to do really well (you), even if you have been inconsistent previously.
  2. Selling yourself to a higher seeded team as a second pick. Emphasize your consistency, higher seeded teams want reliable partners. Show them your defensive blocker that you are building, and stress that your drivers know how to play good defense without getting penalized. Also, stress your ability to score in auto and the endgame.
  3. Selling a special/unique ability about your team. Find high-seeded teams that do not also have this ability, and explain how important this ability will be in playoffs. Common examples this year often include crossing A defenses, crossing C defenses solo, climbing, and crossing many defenses in auto.
#34

Sometimes the best advertising you can do is making sure the other drive teams or decision-making POC know that your team is easy to work with, executes the pre-planned match strategy, and is friendly.

There are many teams that get picked late often when they may or may not have good robots because the drive teams know that they will play nicely together. We typically don’t pick based on friends, but we will give an edge to teams that will listen and work with the strategies we propose.

#35

This sums up my feelings on the matter pretty well. Actions speak louder than words. For anything that can be demonstrated on the field, the data my scouts and I collect trump any other self-promotion. That being said, some self-promotion that provides new information that cannot be observed from matches can be a good thing. It can be hard to observe the root cause of robot issues from watching a match, and even harder to observe corrective action. Telling a prospective alliance captain about issues and how they were resolved can help them look past less favorable data.

This is a really important point. We all have in our heads teams that we consider friendly, good team players, or perennially successful. Attending offseasons and other event builds friendships and reputation. If I’m choosing between two identical robots, and one team is a friend or has a history of winning events and the other doesn’t, the former is almost always getting picked. That being said, friendship is nowhere near as important as being the best option to fulfill our strategy goals for the alliance.

(That, and having friends is nice for its own sake :P)

#36

Over the years, I have been on both ends many times, as alliance captain/1st round pick and also as one hoping to be a second round pick. Many on this forum have already given good advice. It may be confusing about whether to advertise because sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Here is my take on it if you want to be picked by an alliance captain.

  1. Do your best and don’t worry about the win/loss. Good teams usually have good scouters who will pick up everything you do and your contribution each match.
  2. Stick to the agreed upon strategy with your alliance partners. This is true especially if there are specific requests by the high ranked teams. Show them you can be trusted to perform tasks that they want you to do to help them get more ranking points. They will remember you.
  3. Be a team player. Alliance captains like to pick teams that are easy and fun to work with.
  4. Clean up your wiring. I learned this from others when we were a young team. A robot with messy wiring has a perceived higher potential of malfunction and would be difficult to trace the problem in the heat of battle in eliminations. There is much less chance you will get picked when there are other alternatives. Nobody wants to take a chance.
  5. Be honest when you deal with other teams what your robot can do. Somebody who over promise and do not deliver will not get my trust or be on my pick list.
  6. Play smart, make sure drive team knows the rules and minimize fouls.
  7. Have somebody knowledgeable about your robot to be in the pit at all times when your robot is there. This is especially true for Saturday morning. A lot of negotiations happen Saturday morning between high ranked teams. Once it is settled on potential alliances of 1st round picks, I usually start shopping for potential second round pick based on scouting data. Often times multiple robots can fit the role that we need. It is very frustrating when you go to their pit when their robot is there and the people there cannot tell you about their robot or whether they can play a certain role. There is very little time before alliance selection and you may not get a second visit.
  8. It is also important for your scouts to do their job even if you are not ranked high enough to be an alliance captain. Your scouts should be able to tell you Friday night how your robot can be best used to help an alliance win matches in eliminations. Then target those teams with robots you can best complement. Then near the end of Friday night or early Saturday morning, talk to those teams and ask them to watch your matches and tell them what to look for that your robot will demonstrate on the field. Share your scouting data that put your robot’s best “wheel” forward. It may not be an attribute that those teams are collecting.
  9. If you happen to have the first match Saturday morning, do not screw it up because everybody will be watching it right after the opening ceremony. I learned it the hard way.
  10. Some teams have a do not pick list. You do not want to end up on too many of them.

I hope this helps.

#37

I remember a team at Buckeye a few years ago trying to sweet talk our team into picking them on the practice field back in 2008. But they would stop to aim the ball which killed their efficiency so we weren’t interested. They had tried the same with 1126.
I suspect they did the same with 2340 who had manged to seed 3rd in their division at championships because they were their second pick (they took 1450 as their first pick because they wanted to choose a team they were related to).

#38

Last year at North Star it was quite obvious to everyone that we were going to team up with 3130. We were looking for a 2nd pick that could grab at least 1 can in auto, set it down and then stay out of the way. There were a couple of teams that could do this. 2491 was on our list but at the very bottom. Saturday morning their driver approached me and handed me a printed card with all the reasons why they would be the best pick for a 2826 3130 alliance. I told them what I wanted to see from them in their next 2 matches. They did exactly what I wanted to see. When it came time to pick our 2nd robot there were 2 teams left in our list with our criteria. 2491 got picked over the other team because of the time and effort they put in to making a really awesome, professional, and specific marketing device. That marketing device got them their 1st regional win.

#39

So I started this morning reading this thread then turned on the Waterloo livestream. I noticed Karthick has anot Air Jordan shurt under his regular Blue Jays shirt. Is it only me or does this appear to be a very convenient nod to 2056 referencing their 23 straight win streak? Is that a form of alliance requesting?

I realize that 1114 is already leading this morning…

Thoughts anyone?

#40

We have been effective preparing an index card with key info about our robot and passing it to top teams. Keep it simple, keep it 100% true, and usually top teams will take the card even if they wouldn’t have listened to you much in person. Then, when in the heat of selection, the card might be an easy reference and reminder for them.

Basic info: such as “100% auto on low bar and rough terrain, 50 % on low bar” or “cross all defenses except drawbridge and chevals”.