Alliance Selection Picking


#61

You’re right. Because I’m not going to prioritize defense, I’d have all three robots working together, at least some of the time (if not most). So having a slightly faster cycler wouldn’t matter a whole lot. As you said earlier it’s only so much more to do a Level 3 HAB. However, I’d like to be able to squeeze the most points possible out of endgame, which would lead me to lean more towards having one (and only one) that can get L3, unless of course, I could get a pair of robots to share L3, but for me cycling definitely comes before a double L3 (which would be more of a bonus if possible).


#62

I’m not making that assumption, though I can see how that comment could be interpreted that way. Regardless of how trivial a task may seem, I try not to assume that it will happen in every match. While you may end up picking an alliance that can all reach L1, whether or not this will actually happen is up in the air. Plenty of teams that had very good climbers missed climbs in 2017. Plenty of teams with low profile, easy-to-mount ramps/platforms/forks missed triple climbs in 2018. Granted, both of those tasks appear significantly more difficult than L1 this year, but it isn’t always just a matter of driver skill or time management. I’d imagine that most L3 climbers will request that their partners stay out of the way during endgame until they’ve climbed to prevent any mishaps that a bump could cause. What do you do if your partner is inches away from getting the climb with 5 seconds left? Do you risk parking knowing that it’s possible you’ll slow them down and net a 9 point loss? Do you wait it out until they’re on and risk missing it yourself?

On the topic of mechanism reliability, even if a team takes 40 seconds to climb, they’re still on track with an absolutely ridiculous cycler scoring only cargo. It’ll be up to each team to decide when they need to climb.


#63

I’m kinda confused about what sort of climber you think will be slowed down by someone hitting them this year, from what I have seen most climber’s lineups seem minimal but have great risk when actually climbing. I would 100% wait for a team to finish climbing unless you are confident you won’t interfere, you won’t make any friends knocking teams over in the middle of their climb.

I wouldn’t want an climber on my robot that took more than 10 seconds to climb after being lined up with only one robot, there isn’t a good reason why any solo climber should be slower than that IMO. If it takes you 20 seconds to get to the platform and line up(Which i think is very generous, you probably won’t be on the other side of the field and it’s a 4 ft wide platform, it shouldn’t take too much lineup) you should be around 30 for a full climb.


#64

I was thinking more about getting hit mid climb than during lineup but in order for our climb to work we need to be square and pretty close to L3. I think getting hit by a partner could potentially knock us over mid climb. You’re correct in that it probably won’t be a huge issue, but it’s something to consider at least.

I agree that I certainly wouldn’t want a team on my alliance that would take that long to climb if I had better choices, but what if I don’t? I think I’m envisioning ateam who can climb much better than they can score hatch panels or cargo, but still not very well at that. If they’re the best available team for a 2nd pick I won’t rule them out simply because they are slow at climbing. Points are points. I think it’s reasonable to assume that there will be teams who can score fewer than ~5 game pieces in each match. In that case, a team who climbs to L3 over the course of the whole match would still be a good pick - better than that slow dedicated cylcer. They allow the other two teams on the alliance to focus on cycling all match and remove the stress of endgame being at the end of the game. I think I agree with everything you’re saying though. I believe we’re just looking at climbing from two different sides.


#65

I think that for the purposes of picking a level 3 climb you probably won’t get an consistent climb on a 2nd bot until champs or DCMP where you are gonna care about more than just a climb and a drivetrain. I think level 3 is a plus but it’s hard to to see yourself picking a team that is giving itself an extra RP every match as a second bot unless it becomes mandatory for all teams to get that point. If there is a second robot with a consistent hab 3 climb available for a 2nd bot i wouldn’t mind picking them provided they aren’t on the DNP list for some reason. I’m not picking my first bot based on it unless it’s something my bot doesn’t have and it becomes mandatory.


#66

Several teams with ramps were around for 2nd picks at the regionals my team attended last year. A few of them even worked pretty regularly. I think if a team went into the seasoning planning to only climb it could be more than possible for them to be good at that but maybe not much else. They’ll get the HAB RP every match but because they can’t contribute to the score and don’t have the 1st and 2nd best cyclers on the alliance, they’ll have a losing record and won’t end up a captain. I might be overestimating and underestimating some teams at the same time, but I’m reasonably confident there’ll be at least 1 or 2 2nd picks that climb to L3 at the regionals we’re going to.


#67

In my experience, there wasn’t a lot of consistent double climbs last year that was not in the top 8 in any level. I think hab 3 is easier than that but harder than a solo climb last year, so I can see only a hab 3 climb in the realm of possibility but not very likely. I am sure this will be decided very quickly as we enter reveal season.


#68

9 points is almost 2 full ports (panel+cargo). It will be difficult to score that much in 20 seconds of teleop.


#69

That’s not my point at all. I agree that if you have the climber it makes sense to use it when you can. I was talking about the value of the climber vs a better scoring rate as applies to the topic, alliance selection picking.

Consider a team which can allocate resources to do two things well or three things not quite so well. I am talking about two different things the same team could have done, so the comparisons are against the same level of defense, whether zero or significant. I will also assume that the team either will or will not drive off L2 in both scenarios, and that the team will be driving with a camera during the snowsandstorm in both cases, and “average cycle time” here means weighted average over the whole 2:30 of the match. [Note: I consider CARGO and HATCH PANEL cycles as separate things, so that’s why game pieces count as two.]

Scenario 1: Builds game piece manipulators only; no climber. Because of the lower weight, and increased time for developing those manipulators and drive practice, the team is capable of an impressive 12 second average cycle time, and rolls onto L1 of the HAB in ~3 seconds (includes approach time from last score).
Non-sandstorm points: floor((150s - 3s)/12s)*2.5 + 3 = 12*2.5 + 3 = 30 + 3 = 33 points.

Scenario 2: Builds game piece manipulators as well as climber. The team did not spend as much time on the game pieces, but is capable of a respectable 15 second cycle time, and climbs onto L3 of the HAB in ~20 seconds, including approach.
Non-sandstorm points: floor((150-20)/15s)*2.5 + 12 = 8 * 2.5 + 12 = 20 + 12 = 32 points.

I think a 12 second cycle time qualifies as “a bit faster” than 15, and that these two robots would be essentially equally appealing for selection, unless the alliance captain has an L3 climber and there’s only room for one, in which case #1 prevails.


#70

Even if you take your numbers which are of course a hypothetical example if I was presented that choice I think basically an extra ranking point every match is to give me a chance to decide my fate is better than possibly being a better pick. As for who I would pick, it probably depends on my end game strategy as you said and what my other robot looks like but I think they are very close in placement on my list.


#71

This is exactly my point. The topic here is about alliance selection.


#72

[quote=“GeeTwo, post:69, topic:344079”]I Think a 12 second cycle time qualifies as “a bit faster” than 15, and that these two robots would be essentially equally appealing for selection, unless the alliance captain has an L3 climber and there’s only room for one, in which case #1 prevails.
[/quote]

Thx for the clarification. For an alliance captain without a L3 climb, an undefended 9 points is worth more than a riskier 10 points that takes 4 cycles. Defense will impact cycle times.