Are 1114, 217, and 148 beatable?

#21

No FRC match can ever be “duplicated”. Why? Because I know from experience that one match you could be in tip top shape and the next match you are on three out of four wheels.

Those 3 machines many of you speak of in such a “godly” way tend to forget good ole Murphy! He is a very very good friend of mine that many of you know. When he visits, there is no telling what is going to happen.

Pavan

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#22

But you’d get a yellow and possibly red card.

If you’re down 1-0, sure, go for it. You’ve got nothing to lose.

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#23

No alliance is unbeatable, and I think any alliance that has at least two decent hurdlers could stand against a 217, 1114, and 148 alliance by using intelligent strategy and good driving. No one is unbeatable, not ever. However, if you go in believing that you can’t win, then you are right. If you go in believing that anything is possible and you can still win, then you are right.

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#24

While I think it is pretty clear that 1114 was THE dominant robot this season, I was surprised by both their alliance picks. Until I realized that they were choosing based perhaps more on people than on machines. Evidently an effective strategy, but perhaps not the optimal alliance. If one were to remove the constraints of the draft order, I think it may have been possible to form a higher scoring alliance based on the teams within that division.

I would also suggest that the one robot design that could have significantly reduced 1114’s effectiveness was not built… or at least not used in this way as far as I know.

There is no rule preventing a team from raising a 5’ wide bar to a height of 9’ or so, and parking just behind their opponent’s finish line. The bar would be arranged so that the ball would bounce off it before it fully crossed the overpass. Since the ball had been shot, and was no longer in contact will the launcher, this would not count as “contact during hurdling”, and yet the ball would never fully cross the finish line to count as a hurdle. This would have seriously messed up all the launch bots… even if it only blocked 50% of shots, the psychological effect would have the launchers lining up to aim and drastically reducing their rate of scoring.

Jason

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#25

Yes, they are beatable. 968, 233 and 60 proved that by beating them in raw score in two of their three matches. All it would have taken was a missed or bad call (which seem to be common the last couple of years) to have altered the outcome of any of those semi-final matches.

Joe Ross said something to me after 330 won the LA Regional this past year… “There’s a lot of luck involved in any victory.” He’s 100% right. When you were picked, who is available when you’re picking, the way certain calls go your way… These are some of the factors that YOU have no control over that can play a major part in a victory (in a match, a regional or a championship).

Not to take anything away from 1114, 217 and 148… They had an amazing alliance. It says a lot when you can go into a divisional semi-final match, down a robot (and choosing not to take the alternate) and still get a victory.

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#26

If it wasn’t for 40’s Red Card, their alliance would have still won 50-48. That’s even with 90 points in penalties for the 333,40,195 alliance and 30 for 1114,217 alliance.

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#27

Yeah, 1114 has had an amazing robot for years running, and last year had a very, very capable alliance on curie. But they didn’t make it. I’d like to think part of the that difference was luck.

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#28

in this match yes we were talked to and said had we won we would have been issused a yellow card.

also to reference this match and 2nd what rick said, we held them to 28 points in auto which if i belive was the LOWEST all of elims for the 1114 allaince. But also that block was ruled a “intentional block” ala 10pt penalty and a yellow card for intentional impeading and we were warned which was the reason we did not do it in the 2nd match. Looking back we should have since it was still possibly our last match of the year.

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/match.php?matchid=10443

As for the 0 ball strategy, if we had a 2nd bot with grabber capabilites like 176 had almost any team can shut any alliance down. Yes you get a yellow card yes it is not “in the spirit of first” but when you are facing the last match of your season you try what you have to to win the match.

back on topic yes i belive out of any allaince at nats the 968, 233 alliance had the best chance and could take a 2/3 against 1114, 217, 148

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#29

If 148 plays like they did in St. Louis and New Orleans, it would be very very very tough (especially if they have the St. Louis hybrid). If they play like they did at Championship, the alliance is very beatable (as shown by the multiple times they flirted with disaster). Either way, there are a number of alliance structures that would be able to pressure the alliance, and a few alliances that can even run-and-gun with them.
I won’t go into too much detail, but the keys are fast and effective hurdling, ball control, and keeping it close in hybrid.
The Poof/RAWC twins are perhaps the most dangerous teams to the 1114/217/148 alliance, as they can hang with 1114’s scoring, and are quick and agile enough to make it very hard for 148’s defensive style to work against them. There are others who could be very trouble-some in this role, such as 27(fully working), 39, 103, or 330. 148 will have a much easier time hindering those three though. 968 and 103 are the only ones who can even come close of these four to matching 1114’s hybrid scoring, which means the partners will have to pick up some slack. If a team like 1124 or 365 takes the 2nd slot, with their ability to get and score the trackball while defended and huge hybrid points can compliment the first member extraordinarily well.
The third member will make or break the alliance. 1114 and 217 can both acquire the ball in stick situations, and 1114 made a living of sneaking balls out of corners and seemingly impossible situations. A simple “corner-lock” is very hard to pull off successfully against them without allocating too much scoring. The third partner needs to be able to put up hybrid points, lap quickly, and hamper the opponent’s scoring.
201 is the ultimate X-Factor, as when they were on their game, they were a defender without peers. Their ball-driving defense cut down 217’s scoring at GLR elims, and held 27 to a single hurdle in an elimination match on Galileo. Other matches they were absolutely abused though. They can even chip in a hurdle if needed.
Other than 201, a few other legitimate possibilities exist. 8 was looked at as the “designated simbot stopper” on Galileo, although 1114 went 3-0 against them. In the right alliance and in a great match they could apply enough pressure. A strong combo-threat like 494/70, 68, or 1771 could also make a difference as the third partner.
There’s a lot more to the match-up and game strategy I could go into, but I won’t tip my hand too much… :wink:
The alliance with the best shot, imho, would be 968/1124/201.

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#30

There is a strategy in going with a three hurdler alliance and with the right game play, three robots could serve as a hurdling advantage over two. (Think missed hurdles that cost matches)

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#31

Any combination of teams can be beat. Some are better than others, but sometimes even things like luck factor in. 1114, 217, and 148 all built great robots that were functional, efficient, and durable, had incredible students, mentors, drive teams, pit crews, and coaches (etc.) supporting them, had obviously done their scouting homework, had great strategy, and were well-matched in that they worked well together. But by the end of the season, in those last few matches on Einstein, there were moments where each of them looked a little bit worn out. It happens, even to the best teams. I’m not sure which teams on an alliance could beat them- there are a lot of good teams, but I’m not sure which ones would have the chemistry and strategy to beat that alliance- but I’m sure it is possible, because no one is infallible, no matter how good they are.

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#32

i Think if 2056 made it to the einstein field they could have maybe beat them with idk towo other alliance partners because in waterloo, there was two matches that 1114 lost, one was because their alliance partners got them 60 points of penatlies and the other one they lost to 2056. it was literally 2056 vs 1114 in that match because they were doing the scoring.

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#33

In those tight corners and how 1114 plays, I personally think parts of 1124’s grabber could potentially break. It would be risky to play. I think the Poof/RAWC/201 would work.

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#34

jesuit [portland OR] (2374), catlin gable (1540), 473 :cool:
d-fense, pickup place and hurdle, catapult

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#35

Our gripper is actually a lot more at risk when it’s out in the open field without a ball- that’s when people latch onto it and rip it apart, and we have to stand there and watch. We can still play with one of our four “fingers” broken though, sometimes even two. Not sure how well it would compare on the Einstein field, though.

I’m gonna have to agree with you that 1124 does not belong in the winning alliance, but for other reasons. As much as I love my team and our robot, I don’t think that we can achieve the same efficiency with our arm as a lot of the launcher robots do. The best of the best launcher robots always seem to outscore us, even if only by a little, but a few points here and there add up.

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#36

Your hybrid does make up for it though…:slight_smile:

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#37

when it works (=

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#38

You should just take the complement…

Even when our hybrid works, though, I don’t think it’s enough to counteract 1114’s hybrid. And theirs is definitely a bit more consistent than ours. So I still wouldn’t put us on the alliance to beat them. We didn’t make it too far on Einstein this year.

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#39

Yes, they are definitely beatable, as it did happen on Einstein. Beating them twice, though, is very challenging. And if you were to custom-tailor an alliance just to beat those three, it probably wouldn’t be able to stand up to other teams or perform as well in other matches.
The alliance I can see beating the SimChickenWranglers consists of 20, 330, and 2106.
The strategy is a total trackball defense one. I would have 20 grab an opponent ball right at the start of tele, incurring a 10 point penalty. 2106 would use its chain driven manipulator to surround an opponent ball and grip it just enough that it is still herded, not possessed, and therefore not incurring any penalties. Then they must stay in the corner holding the ball the whole match.
Meanwhile, 20 would be lapping like crazy with their bot while playing keep-away with the trackball, to try and overcome the penalty points. I can see them getting 7-9 laps in tele, so that’s 14-18 points.
Lastly, 330 would need to use its ability to herd while possessing to control both of its trackballs, and double hurdle every chance it can get. I don’t see the other alliance trying to play the same trackball possession game, but if they do only the ThunderChickens can really hold onto the ball without possessing it. 148 and 217’s defense could be problematic.
So, after all is said and done, I think that a real aggressive defense would probably be the best way to win. If they can keep up in Hybrid (20 can get 5 lines, 330 3, 2106 2 maybe, and the alliance might get a ball down), and be within ten points, then it’s definitely a viable strategy.

In any other match, this alliance would be very strong with the dual-hurdling of 20 and 330 combined with my proposed trackball defense for 2106.

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#40

I will echo what Sean said, when these three are at their top level they are very hard to beat. If 217/148 had their hybrids at the level they were at earlier in the season i think it becomes an even bigger challenge. But if I were to pick three teams that would be able to do it, it would go like this 968/67/195. These three have the hybrid mode abilities to easily be tied with if not in the lead of the Simchicken Wranglers. Also 195 has the speed to race 1114/217 to any ball and prevent them from getting it (As seen in the Galileo Semis). RAWC and HOT have the scoring ability to keep up and the pick-up abilities to be able to deal with 148’s defense. If the Robowranglers can pin a ball HOT can either get the ball out/switch to defense to defend 217. Obviously this discussion is moot if any of the teams on either alliance breaks down.

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