Are Double Speed Transmissions worthly?

Hi everyone, what do you think about the single speed vs double speed transmissions, do you think is worth to have 2 different speeds? How many of your teams use a DS transmission and what is your experience?
Too we want to ask, what range speed you think is enough to trough the field quickly and what range torque is enough to push a 154 lbs robot? Any Spread ratio is worth or significant when we are selecting a DS Transmission?

Actually we are searching the WCP Double Speed 3 CIM Flipped, but we have too many questions before buy it, and thank you so much for your answers.

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Several teams who have used shifting gearboxes regularly in the past have said that they are no longer needed with the new brushless motors. I tend to agree. I wouldn’t say we’ll never use a shifting gearbox in the future, but it would have to be a very unique game for us to consider it. As for the gear ratio, that depends largely on the wheel diameter, how many motors, and what floor speed you want to travel. In general, our team wants to have a top speed between 12-16 feet per second.

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I can only speak for our team, but we used a shifter once, in 2014. Toward the end of the season I asked our drivers whether they liked it. Their response was “I don’t really know, we left it in high gear all year”.

So for us, it wasn’t worth the effort, cost, weight, or complexity.

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My team has mixed feelings about shifters. Sometimes it gives some benefit and other times it just isn’t worth it. I think it depends on the game significantly. An important part about the shifters to remember is to have a driver good enough to utilize the speed settings for when you are in defense or flying across the field. The drivetrain is only as good as the driver that uses it. Shifters are definitely not always needed to have a good drivetrain.

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I have to second this.

20 years ago when we had 2 crappy brushed Bosch drill motors and 2 CIMs you really needed to shift because you really had to design for the power curves of the motors and they didn’t have power across the range that we have now. Then as we got the ability to use more motors and those motors got better it became harder to justify the need and complexity of shifting.

Once we got to 6 motor drive we had a discussion every year on shifting to decide whether or not to use it because the power with single speed was there unless we wanted to go really fast for a cross field run. That discussion pretty much ended when we got to brushless motors. It has been, “Can anyone think of a reason we need to shift or have a power take off that justifies putting the mechanism in.”

With brushless you can have enough power to slip your wheels when in a pushing match and still hit 16 feet per second which is the full range an FRC robot needs.

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My team used a single-speed gearbox and programmatic shifting in both 2020 and 2022. The drivers found it useful and it was very reliable, so we’re probably bringing it back in 2023.

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How does this work? Are you artificially cutting power/current limits so you can “shift”?

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With limited motor power and games where pushing power AND sprint speed was highly valued, 2-Speed drivetrains were considered to be the competitive standard. However even then, teams were highly successful with Kitbot drivetrains and other single speed options.

Nowadays with the increased motor power, and a general shift away from “pushing power” as the way to deal with defense, two speed drivetrains provide increased complexity for little competitive gain. (in my opinion - I’m sure some teams used shifting in 2022 and swear by it, but I think it’s unnecessary)

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We still use shifting, although we debate it every year. We still find times where the low gear is useful to push - or he low gear is useful to make a more precise movement.

Of the student drivers I have talked to about their shifters, this was a common sentiment.

My personal opinion for the complexity, cost and space requirements I would just rather have swerve.

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While this doesn’t get any additional power for pushing, it’s always very useful for precision placement. I like having a “precision mode” where the top speed is reduced by 50% or so.

In any case, a shifting gearbox isn’t worth it. They provide extremely little benefit with 4 brushless motors on the table. I would say use the KOP chassis and save your $ for a swerve drive next year.

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Picture time!

Let’s look at some “torque curves” of the motor/transmission system. X axis will be how fast the wheels are rotating (ie, how fast your bot is moving across the field), and Y axis will be how much force is getting put into the ground. All of these assume the motors are being driven at a full 12v with no current limiting.

In a pushing match, you’ll be near zero motor speed. Therefor, your ability to push is related to where the curve intercepts the Y axis.

When traveling fast, your max speed is hit when the motors stop applying force to the ground (F=ma, if F = 0, a = 0, so velocity remains constant). Therefor, max speed is at the curve’s X-intercept.

As a general statement, “better” drivetrains will operate with both large X and large Y.

For a given set of motors, the gear ratio (“speed”) allows you to pick the tradeoff between top speed and max “torque to the ground” - IE pushing force.

A high-reduction gear ratio results in lots of torque at the low end, but caps your top speed.

A low-reduction gear ratio results in better top speed, at the cost of low-end torque:

The ideal two-speed gearbox lets you pick between both of these curves. Assuming you shift at just the right time, you can stay on the “top curve”. This means means you retain your low-end pushing ability, while still having a good top speed:

Looks pretty ideal, right? Why wouldn’t everyone just do this?

However

There’s more considerations

First of all, these things are heavy. Sometimes that’s desirable, but it takes away weight budget from other mechanisms.

Secondly, there’s a traction limit. The wheel/ground interface can’t transfer infinite torque to the ground. At the point the wheels start to slip, the “torque to the ground” gets limited to a constant value, proportional to the kinetic coefficient of friction between rubber and carpet, and the robot’s weight.

Third, there’s a speed limit related to your sprint distance. As you perform a cycle, there’s only so much speed you can accumulate before you have to start slowing down to stop. This point will move around based on your ability to accelerate or decelerate.

Fourth, you’re likely to have additional torque limits, which might be under your traction limit. If your robot has a high center of mass, you’ll have to artificially lower your maximum torque to the ground to prevent tipping. Far more common, the amperage required to push that hard is often more than a battery can sustain, so you apply a current limit (which is, effectively, just another torque limit).

With these limits in mind, we could pick an ideal set of gear ratios and motors to achieve performance that just barely touches up against our physics limits, but doesn’t try to push past them

So, given the limits, is single or double better? Hard to say - shifting does get you a little more performance, but is it worth the complexity, cost, and weight? Exactly how much better it is will depend a lot on exactly where those limits are, relative to the gear ratios in question.

While I can’t say I’ve personally run the numbers to prove it out, the prevailing wisdom is that two brushless motors on grippy wheels will out-perform almost any other permutation on the market. If you’ve got specifics and time to run a few experiments and numbers, you might be able to prove it out to yourself what’s better, given the constraints you have as a team. But, statistically, the answer will likely be to invest in brushless motors and a single speed gearbox, and save the weight and complexity for another mechanism.

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Does your team use linear input for the control or some power function? I’ve heard that power functions are the way to go, but I have always liked a “creep” mode

These are nice little graphs, and a very clear explanation.

I think the other consideration one has to take into account is “how likely am I to be moved when I’m trying to score, and how much do I care?” If you’ve got lots of places you want to score, so you can just re-direct and zip around defense, that’s fine. But if you have to put this thing right there and there’s a defender either in the way or planning on bashing you as soon as you get there, it’s going to matter a lot more. (The spoilers and ringer placement in Rack 'n Roll is the greatest example of this being critically important, iirc–it wasn’t enough to score a tube on a leg, you really, really wanted to score them on very specific legs.)

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I have always squared the inputs (or done something weirder like a logistic function at times). But a precision mode is useful on top of that, especially if you are implementing closed-loop velocity control.

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Yep, the current limit is cut to 60/50/whatever % of the normal current limit to simulate a “low gear”. Like @asid61 said, there’s no additional pushing power this way, but you could always shift back to high current limits for pushing matches.

Depending on the game and the drivers, I could see the implementation getting controlled either with a two-state toggling system, a “turbo” button, or a “creep” button.

+1

Our 2020 had the standard kibot setup - 6WD, but with 4 falcons. The free speed was like 20ft/s and I remember asking around here if speed could be artificially limited via software, and it was.

Driving around and getting used to the bot, I rarely let it out of the reduced speed. But if competition had happened, I’m sure there would be many times it would have been at full power.

Looked at code, seems reduced speed caps at 70%

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All great advice. I’d recommend to the OP to simulate the situation and decide if it’s worth it to them. I personally like the ILITE Drivetrain Simulator.

A big variable will be what the typical “sprint” is on the field. It’s more useful to look at shifting for a full field sprint, like 2017. I think you will see less benefit in games like 2018/2019 where there isn’t a lot of room for long sprints. You can test all that in the calculator though.

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Others have covered the explanation and end results very nicely, so I’ll offer our end result from here on 95.

We found 4xNEO single speed powered differential drives are excellent, with better performance than 6xCIM or 6xMiniCim+shifters.

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Our driver sometimes overcomes this limitation by simply smashing headlong into the field and elements :wink:

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