There has been a decent amount of talk recently about the importance of alliance selection and how scouting ties in with it. Are there any videos or post that analyze alliance selections afterwards to explain high level teams decisions much like how there is match replay analysis?
The closest I can think of is at the world championship. A few analysts discuss alliances before the playoff matches begin. I don’t know if the video is recorded somewhere or not. Are you looking for something like this, or more like a database?
I know that there is no data base for this type of thing. I was just wondering if there are like videos or threads where people have analyzed alliance selection picks either from a top team’s perspective or overall. I think it would be interesting to understand why certain picks where made and possibly what factors teams were using when deciding their picks.
You rarely see a high level team (or really any team) publicly release a full picklist and commentary about how they felt about each team because of the high risk of hurt feelings.
There are overall analyses that happen in real time at events like IRI and CC, but a top team’s perspective in real time would be a real gem of content.
I watched the live feed from IRI this year and they were assessing each of the picks and speculating as to why each team was picked. But the announcers are really just speculating based on their own experiences.
Not sure if that is still available anywhere.
@Francis-134 Any chance you could get the RSN crew to try to interview someone from each of the 8 captains at Chezy after alliance selection?
While it may be hard to get playoff teams to speak about the teams they picked or playing against, I’d really like to see them interview drive coaches or scouts from teams not selected. While the hosts are knowledgeable and do a great job, they have other responsibilities at the event. I think interviewing people that competed against the teams on the field or went through th the scouting process (collecting data, discussing match strategy, analyzing data, creating picklist…) could lead to really insightful and interesting content.
Interesting idea! We’ll take a look into it. I can see some logistical difficulties, but we’ll discuss it and see what we can do, at the very least to satisfy the OP’s questions.
From what @JackOl said, you can check out the Detroit CMP live alliance selection analysis at https://www.twitch.tv/videos/418982204?t=02m36s , and Houston at https://www.twitch.tv/videos/418977201?t=02m26s.
I think there’s a big stigma around discussing pick quality because the potential for hurt feelings is very real. While not hurting feelings is obviously good, I think the lack of public dialog surrounding what is and is not a good pick helps to further entrench the divide between the strategy/scouting haves and have nots. It’s part of why Katie and I decided to write Gettin Picky, to level the playing field and make picking wisdom more accessible. I’m not sure what the solution is besides hoping teams become more willing to talk about their picks and how they pick.
I am happy to publicly comment on any of 2791’s picks from 2016-2019 and would be happy to talk about/share our past picklists in DMs.
Something I’d decline pretty quickly personally.
Getting a live feed into top teams’ picklist meetings (such as 1678) would be so valuable and eye-opening. Even though they’ve described their pick list process in depth on CD multiple times, seeing it live would probably give so much more information as to how they create their picklists.
Maybe not even live but a direct overview after a competition. To explain what they were thinking at the time, without giving away anything strategic.
Why only DM?
As mentioned, many people may feel hurt to see their team lower than they expected or not on a list at all. My hope is that anyone who is interested enough in scouting/picking to reach out to me would be significantly less likely to take things personally than any random person stumbling on a publicly posted list.
I would also would not feel comfortable posting our lists publicly without asking my students if that would be okay with them, and that isn’t a conversation we’ve had yet.
I’d love to hear what others think on the matter.
It’s a tricky one. I tend to lean on the side of publishing as much as possible, but I’m not on a team so my perspective may be different than most’s.
I don’t think that the general culture of secrecy around alliance selection is a good thing. It causes teams who are not normally captains to wildly speculate on why they weren’t picked instead of giving them actionable information for the future. “Everyone only picks their friends”, “They picked straight off of OPR”, “We should have played more defense”, “We should have played less defense” etc…
I think generally that the people that get their feelings hurt are going to be hurt whether or not people publish. As they are really just hurt by the fact that they weren’t selected in alliance selections. The problem is that the teams that publish their picklists/data receive the brunt of this pain just because they provide a perfect scapegoat for these people. Which causes teams to generally not publish.
I don’t know that there’s a good solution to this problem, but here’s what I will say:
If you are genuinely not understanding of why you weren’t picked or the like, it is perfectly reasonable to ask the captains if they could share their picklists with you WITH THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS:
You don’t press them if they say no
You don’t argue their data/choices with them, just say thank you for the information and move on
Remember that they are doing you a favor, not the other way around, so make it as pleasant for them as possible or they won’t do it again.
Self-reflection is a tough process, but it can reap large rewards, just make sure you’re ready for some harsh truths if you choose to go down that path. If you don’t think you can handle responses that you don’t like, then you really shouldn’t be asking imo.
From a scouting perspective please don’t take not being on a pick list personally. In the end the goal of scouting is to win matches and also assemble the best alliance possible IF given the opportunity or input.
The problem is scouts need to include THEIR team in the final alliance. They will hopefully look at where to fill gaps to compete in eliminations, It’s interesting if you analyse actual picks , some go very deep. These are often because they fill a need or they finally managed to pull something off like a climb or other grand task.
I would start analysis by evaluating your own team each season. We do scout our own team and evaluate them same as any other . Then seeing what partners add either firepower/value to scoring potential or mitigate threats from potential alliances in eliminations. It really is about survival and making it until the next round. This will be a unique effort for every team starts by knowing thyself. You certainty don’t want to waste a pick duplicating what you already do better, Rather look for scoring opportunities you can’t or won’t do. Or mitigations that mitigate.
From a strategy standpoint its good to go into a year ensuring “no bad games.” That means being able to score despite what partners you have. That will rank you higher and give some valuable leverage in selection slots. In Eliminations its all about the best partners. Those that you know enhance what your team does and can potentially mitigate scoring from others. So having a deep pick list helps.
It really increases your odds if you rank high and pick well.That helps you to build enough of an alliance to win it all. This is why scouting is not to be compared it is most effective when customized to the team using it.