Autodesk Codec Response!!!

Technical 3D Animation and Competition
#18

Well it’s too late for this year but I am going to find out who to talk to at Autodesk for next year. If we can get Quicktime Pro for each school (only 30-40 dollars) we can all render as uncompressed and break it into two files. Then create a pointer file that joins them together ‘virtually’. Thuis only takes five minutes to do and will solve all the problems.

Why? Because I’ve heard horror stories about peoples animations comming out with color shifts and flashes throughout. I know from years of experience that this is due to the compression of an already compressed file. All you guys that are proud of your 15 and 20 Mb files may have shot yourself in the foot. I wont know till I see all the results. I am attending our first Regional this weekend for this years competition. At which time I will see the results of what Autodesk produced for a judging tape.

The key is to start with a file that is as uncompressed as possible. Then they can do what ever they want and you have a better quality file to start with. Garbage In-garbage Out. You have all heard this before.

The second solution is to change the specs to D1/NTSC video frame resolution which is a 720x486 frame size- then everyone downloads Avid Meridian Codec for free and renders an 2:1 Meridien compressed QT. Then the file will be one of the best compressed files you’ll ever get and fit easily on a CD and be of such a hi-quality that you can recompress it to what ever format you want- Trust me on this- I spent years working with many file formats and compression sizes.

The only other acceptable result is for them to let us know what system they are compiling the tape on and getting a codec for that system that everyone can use as a standard. (I did ask them for this information as well as questions in a variety of other emailed questions and never once heard back form Autodesk- So much for a contact email)

#19

*Originally posted by stevek *
All you guys that are proud of your 15 and 20 Mb files may have shot yourself in the foot.
Nope, we can’t detect a single flaw in our 17MB animation. Cinepak was much more, and it looked like it had a checkerboard overlay…

#20

Nope, we can’t detect a single flaw in our 17MB animation. Cinepak was much more, and it looked like it had a checkerboard overlay…

Are you referring to your submitted animation or the display reel at a regional that you attended?

I am referring to the final output coming from Autodesk for the judging at the competition.

Almost any codec with the proper settings should look at least OK. Obviously some are better than others. But some are much better as an END USER output than as a “Working” Codec (meaning the its only being viewed by others an not being re-compressed or edited). I used Sorenson3 for our stuff at a 100% quality level. It seemed fine even on Re-compressions I made from it- But it would never ever be my first choice. And I prefer to deal in best case scenarios not lets cross our fingers and hope that it all works out scenarios.

#21

*Originally posted by stevek *
**Are you referring to your submitted animation or the display reel at a regional that you attended? **
Yeah, but the output Autodesk made didn’t seem to have any flaws either…

#22

Glad to hear- In my opinion, this was a cross your fingers and pray solution. Its not any of your faults- Its Autodesk that should know better. The only way their directions to us this year would make sence would be if they were to take the exact file we sent them and put them all onto a CD ‘as-is’ and for them to do the praying (that all the CODECs are installed on the Judging Computers) The faqct that a VHS tape showed up at the regionals last week tells me that didnt happen!

#23

*Originally posted by ditritus *
**Yeah, but the output Autodesk made didn’t seem to have any flaws either… **

Ditrius,

On 3/11/03 you stated:
" We used DivX and got the size of our final animation (without credits) down to 17mb… Which is awesome, compared to last year’s…"

Here you seem to be stating that your animation is being shown at the regional.

I specifically requested DivX and was told it was NOT ALLOWED. The listed allowable codecs were Cinepak, Indeo, and Quicktime. In Update #10 on Page 5, it specifically states the codecs allowed.

Please supply to me or post here whatever documentation you received allowing you to use DivX.

This not an attempt to intimidate or discourage. Your team apparently did not follow stated rules and if you are being judged against teams that did, this is entirely inappropriate and unfair.

#24

*Originally posted by Max3DLee *
I specifically requested DivX and was told it was NOT ALLOWED. The listed allowable codecs were Cinepak, Indeo, and Quicktime. In Update #10 on Page 5, it specifically states the codecs allowed.
Well, we listened while our mentor read off the rules that stated that you could use any codec you like.
Don’t believe it? Well, they showed our animation on the big screen, as well as in the theater at the party and at the Autodesk judging booth. That’s enough for me.

Sorry you missed out, DivX is great…

… And that’s Mr. Ditritus to you! :stuck_out_tongue:

#25

I believe your mentor was wrong.

I will research the procedures for a formal protest.

#26

*Originally posted by Max3DLee *
I believe your mentor was wrong.
A protest? That’s taking things a little far… Besides, other that the shading on the bottom of the CD due to the file size, what difference is there?

#27

MAX3DLEE- Who told you you couldnt use DivX. There was never any thing that said that. I am a mentor on My team and I read everything several times. The original rules said that we can use any Codec We like- The Update was a list of Sugestions for those that couldn’t make up their own mind. In update NUM10_Page5 They never said- Heres an update of what you NEED to use they just stated “these are some Prefered codecs” They dont say “Required”. That combined with the original rules still leaves the door wide open. This update (is also mentioned there about working in uncompressed files or image sequences and then doing only your final output in the desired Codec.

Save your breath on a protest- It isnt needed. If you want to voice an opinion as to how they can make it better- then be my guest, we all know there room to improve. But I dont see anything to Protest here!

#28

Please point me to the update or documentation that states that a team may use ANY codec the team chooses.

Your interpretation of the documentation approving ANY codec by not specifically naming one is opposite of mine, where I interpreted the update as requiring the use of Cinepak, Indeo, or Quicktime.

We need clarification.

I apologize if my response here was misunderstood to suggest that the protest I still intend to file, if there is such a thing, would be against “Mr. Ditritus’s” team. The protest I intend to file will be regarding the overall poor administration of the Animation portion of the competition.

My quick and terse reply was partly due to “Mr. Ditritus” boastful and smart-$@#$@#$@# replies posted here. His “tough noogies” reply is a prime example of poor sportsmanship and a generally bad attitude.

As to “Mr. Ditritus’s” “what’s the difference” question, this is also an example of lack of knowledge. To answer “Mr. Ditritus’s” question, there is a MAJOR difference in quality of the animation when using a lower quality codec.

But back to the original issue, we need clarification. I intend to have it.

#29

*Originally posted by Max3DLee *
Please point me to the update or documentation that states that a team may use ANY codec the team chooses.
He just did:
*Originally posted by stevek *
NUM10_Page5
A while down, it says that acceptable codecs include, but are not limited to the three you mentioned. Does that clear things up?
*Originally posted by Max3DLee *
My quick and terse reply was partly due to “Mr. Ditritus” boastful and smart-$@#$@#$@# replies posted here. His “tough noogies” reply is a prime example of poor sportsmanship and a generally bad attitude.
:confused: Since when did we start throwing insults?
I wasn’t trying to be rude, that’s why I put the :p, I was just having fun.
*Originally posted by Max3DLee *
As to “Mr. Ditritus’s” “what’s the difference” question, this is also an example of lack of knowledge. To answer “Mr. Ditritus’s” question, there is a MAJOR difference in quality of the animation when using a lower quality codec.
Once again, I missed the point where this got personal…
If you put the quality of the animation up high enough, it’ll be nearly the same quality as all the others, but just the size of a CD. I don’t think there’s such thing as a low-quality codec, because from what I know they can all be adjusted. For example, a Quicktime format can be just as sharp as DivX’s picture, it probably requires more space though… If there’s any error in that, I’m sorry, I’m not the post-production graphics guy, I work strictly on modeling and 2D work, such as maps and the credits.

#30

The update in question DOES NOT STATE “…include, but not limited to…”, it simply states “Preferred Codecs are…”

#31

*Originally posted by Max3DLee *
**The update in question DOES NOT STATE “…include, but not limited to…”, it simply states “Preferred Codecs are…” **
That’s why I didn’t quote it. Come on, don’t take this so seriously.

#32

*Originally posted by ditritus *
**That’s why I didn’t quote it. Come on, don’t take this so seriously. **

You dont get it, do you?

Hundreds, if not thousands, of people are being treated as though their work means little to nothing.

Have you read the posts here?

A joke they call regional animation competition

I dont know about your team, but my team spent well over a hundred hours working on our animation. I personally drove over 3 hours RT every time our team met.

And you dont think I should take this seriously?

#33

*Originally posted by Max3DLee *
**Hundreds, if not thousands, of people are being treated as though their work means little to nothing.

Have you read the posts here?

A joke they call regional animation competition**
I realize that the animations were underexposed this year, as you can read in the post I made in that thread.
*Originally posted by Max3DLee *
**I dont know about your team, but my team spent well over a hundred hours working on our animation. I personally drove over 3 hours RT every time our team met.

And you dont think I should take this seriously? **
Our team spent nearly the same amount of time on our animation, though I can’t say for sure. We haven’t counted the number of hours we put forth, because we don’t care. It’s the satisfaction that keeps us coming back year after year.
I don’t think you should take the codec so seriously… The point of FIRST isn’t to win, but to make progress and learn, which is why I don’t think something such as a codec should matter so much, but rather the improvements made during the course of the season.

#34

*Originally posted by ditritus *
**I realize that the animations were underexposed this year, as you can read in the post I made in that thread.Our team spent nearly the same amount of time on our animation, though I can’t say for sure. We haven’t counted the number of hours we put forth, because we don’t care. It’s the satisfaction that keeps us coming back year after year.
I don’t think you should take the codec so seriously… The point of FIRST isn’t to win, but to make progress and learn, which is why I don’t think something such as a codec should matter so much, but rather the improvements made during the course of the season. **

I agree that the main thing you gain out of this is skill and satisfaction at having produced something good, but I dont think that that is the point. The point is that we made this for a competitiion of animations, not just to boost our skill in 3dsMAX. This matters most for the teams who really did feel they could win, but got confused on the codec thing. I mean, I spent a whole monday where I had been getting 0 sleep that weekend trying to figure out the best codec to use. It matters to us because this is something we created, and we want people to see it. We are proud of our work. You may say this is showing off, but I mean, thats what a competition is kind of about. You might as well say that its not important to care about winning the robot competition.

I was incredibly excited when our team found out we won 2nd at St. Louis. Dont you think the competition aspect only enhances the inspiration and the feeling of achievement that you get?

Once again, I have to say, this is our precious project which is something that many of us have put in hundreds of hours. When one gets to the competition and finds people saying how crappy their animation is(theoretically, no one in FIRST would actually say that) and one knows it would be 20 times better if one had simply compressed it better, wouldnt you feel terrible?

I also completely agree with MAX3dLee about the fact that you expect us to not take this seriously.

#35

*Originally posted by Chris Nowak *
When one gets to the competition and finds people saying how crappy their animation is(theoretically, no one in FIRST would actually say that) and one knows it would be 20 times better if one had simply compressed it better, wouldnt you feel terrible?
Naturally I would, but 20 times better is an exaggeration. I saw one at VCU that had a checkerboard effect and noise over it, and I could still tell that the animation itself had been very good. It’s the judges’s choice whether or not to discriminate against that. I don’t see the why they would… But then again, they are students…
*Originally posted by Chris Nowak *
**
I also completely agree with MAX3dLee about the fact that you expect us to not take this seriously. **
Well I understand the worries, but taking it too such an extent as “I will research the procedures for a formal protest.” and “The protest I intend to file will be regarding the overall poor administration of the Animation portion of the competition.” seem a little too critical for the situation.
All I’m saying is that in the past, we’ve achieved quality equal to DivX’s using regular AVIs and MPGs, and the only noticable difference is the file size. Therefore, I don’t see the issue of the codec to be as important as you guys are making it out to be.
I realize that different codecs have their strong points, but I don’t see how you could intentionally put the quality so low that it makes that big of a difference.

#36

Look, I really dont think you understand about exactly how codecs work! Maybe in your animation it didnt matter, that’s fine, I could see how you would take from your personal experience like that. But I tested out a lot of different codecs including cinepak and indeo and there is a major difference. It really is not something that can be ignored or not taken seriously. Different codecs are good for different things. Some are better for high motion, some are better for low. Some blend colors, and some dont. The thing is, you must find the one that suits your animation the best. Even when I had the quality slider all the way to the max in cinepak, it really didnt work well. One thing I noticed about many animations was how people used the white carpet material that comes with max. This, IMO, does not compress well with any compressor, and leaves a sort of shaky feel when you move the camera. We used the white carpet material(b/c I forgot about the problem), so we knew we would have to find the compressor that affected this the least, because we knew that it would be a major distraction when the animation was watched. If one didnt use these materials or anything else that didnt compress well, one could probably push the quality slider fairly low and still have a very watchable animation. But believe me, no one should carelessly compress their animation.

Yeah, but a formal protest may take it a little too far in this case.

#37

Again, I reiterate, I plan to protest the overall poor administration of the animation portion of the contest - not the use of what may actually be illegal codecs. The issue of the codecs is a symptom, not the sickness.

And one last attempt at describing the issue of codecs.

It’s the difference between CD quality audio and 8.0 kHz, 8bit mono sound. You could have the greatest song in the history of the universe, but it’s still going to sound crappy and unprofessional at that lower rate and bit depth.

Yes, I want our work to have motion picture quality and if it looks even one pixel less, then it’s not good enough for me.

Sorry, that’s how serious I am about it.