Bag & Tag/Allowance Question

Our team is on a very limited budget. We want to have a practice bot after bag & tag. The question that team has is this: Can we only place in the bag the manipulators and other items that we intend to build onto the KOP chassis. We would keep the KOP chassis and build a 2nd set of manipulators for practice. To be under the 30 pounds of weight withholding the KOP chassis would be disassembled and therefore the unmodified frame rails, motors would be COTS and not count towards withholding. Our wired up control board and some other misc. items would be under the 30 pounds. Upon arrival at regional and pits opening the KOP chassis would be reassembled and the bagged manipulators would be attached. Under the rules it appears legal, but we don’t want to screw up as rookies. Any problems that you see with this plan.

Correct me if im wrong, but once its built its not COTS anymore, right? I dont think it can retroactively regain COTS by disassembling it…

Rule 8.1 below defines COTS:

Many rules in this section reference Commercial-Off-The-Shelf (COTS) items. A COTS item must be a standard (i.e. not custom order) part commonly available from a VENDOR for all teams for purchase. To be a COTS item, the COMPONENT or MECHANISM must be in an unaltered, unmodified state (with the exception of installation or modification of any software). Items that are no longer commercially available but are functionally equivalent to the original condition as delivered from the VENDOR are considered
COTS and may be used.

I am not seeing where something becomes non COTS if has been assembled and has not been modified. Is that in a different part of the rules?

The moment you put it together, it becomes modified, no?

If the KOP frame has not been modified at all (no cutting, etc.) then taking it apart would make it COTS.

The issue here is that normally the KOP frame must be cut to the appropriate size… and thus would not be COTS if taken apart

I am not sure how the parts would be modified. We would not be adding any holes, cutting anything off, or bending any of the items. Inserting a bolt through a pre-drilled factory home does sound like a modification. We could not call any churro tube that had a self-tapping screw installed COTS, but I am not sure what else would be modified on the KOP chassis. What other parts could be considered modified and how?

Thanks for the help. We only have one chassis, one set of electrical parts & pneumatics. We do however have lots of raw material and a good machine shop. We really don’t want to spend the money for parts if it possible to utilize what we have within the rules.

The KOP frame usually comes larger than the volume allows. So to build your robot you need to cut the front and back plates down, this making it a modified part and not COTS. Or at least that is the way I see it. From what I have seen, the end plates are longer than 33", which is the max width this year. Correct me if I am wrong. Also, good luck in your first year!

Dont’ cut on it, completely disassemble it, and you should be OK. As noted above, Either the end plates or the side plates will have to be cut to pass R03, unless you can come up with a bizarre starting configuration leaning against the alliance wall and convince the inspectors and referees to let you use it.

We re-use our AndyMark TB gearboxes from year to year - completely disassemble, swap for new bearings, inspect parts, and reassemble.

Sorry to be unclear we know that any parts we cut on the chassis would be counted toward the 30 pound allowance.

We are more concerned about the language of R16: All ROBOT elements … must be bagged and sealed.

A ROBOT as defined in the Game Manual Glossary is: an electromechanical assembly built by the FIRST® Robotics CompetitionTeam to perform specific tasks when competing in FIRST® POWER UPSM. The ROBOT must include all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game – power, communications, control, BUMPERS, and movement. The ROBOT implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play FIRST POWER UP.

What we are proposing put in the bag would do not be defined as a ROBOT, as the control systems, communications, power distribution board would not be in bag. We would have “some” elements in the bag, our non-powered cube manipulator our non-powered “climbing” device.

Also you could attempt to get contact with a robot inspector from an event in your area to ask. They will know if it is allowed. Are there any established teams in your area? They may be willing to donate, loan, or sell an old standard chassis.

Getting in touch with a robot inspector sounds like a great idea. Does anybody know a robot inspector in the Kansas City area and be willing to provide their contact info by Private Message it would be appreciated.

I am a Kansas City area robot inspector. Feel free to PM me.

One caution I want to give you as a rookie is try not to give yourself too much work to do on practice day at the regional. There is a lot of stuff you have to get done that day including:

setting up your pit (apart from anything you get done the night before)

passing inspection

getting out to the field and connecting to the FMS at least once before the end of practice matches (which is usually a couple of hours before the pits close)

planned robot work to get your bagged robot ready to inspect (installing withholding items, etc)

testing to make sure your robot is working the way you want, possibly including practice matches

unexpected robot work to correct inspection issues, damage in transit, and/or other random acts of Murphy

answering a ton of questions from other teams about your robot and team

hopefully, sending team members around to see the robots you’ll be competing against

Everything is going to take longer than you expect because you’ll be working in an unfamiliar (and overwhelmingly distracting) environment, in a confined space, with only a subset of your normal shop resources. Practice day is going to fly by. There will be a huge amount of help available to you, but the list of planned robot work you seem to be setting is ambitious.

It is the LRI at your event that matters, and they will (or should) rule in a way consistent with the rules. Better to ask your question to Q&A. In the past they have pretty rigid on the COTs definition to mean as delivered. They have allowed full disassembly to return a fabricated item back to COTs condition.

I highly recommend not going down this particular path. I haven’t seen this year’s kit but if it’s identical to last year then from a legality standpoint I think only the tapped churros and any cut components would be a problem. The real issue is the constraint that it places upon your team. In addition to the existing challenges this approach requires that you do the following:

  1. Design the robot such that it can be easily disassembled into COTS and non-COTS components.

  2. Take up a significant portion of your pit time re-assembling the robot, which is time that you will not able to troubleshoot, get your inspection done, or practice.

  3. Use up some of your 30lb allotment for fabricated components related to your robot (such as the board to hold your electronics).

The benefits of having a partial practice robot are not worth the risk of having a nonfunctional competition robot. As a rookie team with financial constraints I highly recommend that you focus on minimizing complication and put together a solid and reliable robot that does one or two things extremely well.

It might be worth asking around other teams in the area and seeing if anyone has a spare KOP drive train, or one from last year that you could salvage as a practice bot.

I’m a KC LRI; I don’t know which tournament yet so I may not be yours. Feel free to pm me also.