Balance while turning?

I am looking to build a Segway type vehicle of my own and I’ve come across I question I can’t quite seem to answer. Simply put, while moving in a straight line or standing still a vehicle of this sort balances because the more it tilts the motor the motors compensate. But what happens when you are turning in place as in one wheel rotating the opposite direction of the other? I have ridden the real Segway and it maintains it’s balance exceptionally well while performing that maneuver. I was just wondering what the logic was behind that. Going in a straight line, the movement is explained as a controlled fall. How can it maintain balance while turning on it’s axis because there is no single direction of falling for which to compensate? Or it it even falling at all while turning? If you could provide me an answer soon that would be great because I’m currently figuring out everything I will need for my project.

One more thing - does 6 mph seem okay as a max speed for this vehicle? I know the real one does 12.5 but it has some really speacial stuff.

6mph is fine, you dont wanna fall off :slight_smile:

This is going to be a hard one…

Really, a lot of the explanations of how the segway works is flawed. They are true, but they aren’t getting at the basis of why it uses gravity to go.

You have to understand that torque of a motor is a force (one that is rotating). Force makes things go faster (increase velocity). The key to the segway is that it uses gravity to serve as a negative torque to make the wheels spin. If you had a platform such as the 2-wheeled Segway, but with some buttons on it to make it go forward or backward, the moment you pressed them, the wheels would go forward but also the platform would spin backward, and you would fall on your butt. This is because, as Isaac Newton said, for every action (force), there is an equal and opposite reaction (force). To counteract this reaction, the device forces you to lean forward. The device then accelerates you forward, until you are parallel to the force of gravity again. Velocity is not a force, so this explains why you can be moving. Force = Mass x Acceleration.

Next, torque will always cause a shaft to spin perpendicular to the torque acting upon it. This answers your question. The wheels are the source of torque, and the handlebar is the shaft. Therefore, the handlebars will always be perpendicular to the surface when the device spins. Also, the reason the platform doesn’t come crashing down even though you are straight up is that the motors are spinning in opposite directions, therefore they are inducing an equal, but opposite torque on the platform that cancels itself.

Really, all you need to make a segway work is a device that tells you when you are parallel to gravity. You can then just apply torque to the motors (negative or positive) until the device registers parallel (of course actual numbers make the work easier because then you can tell when you are approaching parallel and don’t overshoot). Of course you need +/- to tell which direction the user is leaning.

Speed really isn’t the issue, it’s how much torque you have available (and therefore the power of the motors). You should always have more torque than that of the weight of the rider times gravity. You can reasonably expect that the rider will only lean as far as 60 degrees so you can get away with multiplying the above number by sqrt(3)/2. You can reasonably expect a rider to be 200 lbs or 90 kg so the force you would need to apply at the wheels is sqrt(3)/2 * 90kg * 10 m/s^2 = 800N. This means you’d have to gear down your motors enough to put out 400N of torque each. You can cut this number to 250N of torque each if you expect the rider to lean a maximum of 30 degrees. Just don’t have any emergencies…

FIRST motors would barely be able to handle this at a decent speed. You could get away with using dual motors on each side. The motors on the segway are 1,500W each whereas our FIRST motors (drill, CIM) are 300-400W each.

By the way, you can cut down on the amount of torque required to right the rider by mounting most of your weight underneith the axle, such as the battery. Also, keep in mind that torque decreases linearly as the speed increases, so eventually it will reach the point where, at top speed, you won’t be able to “recover” the rider no matter how little they lean. You need to code a speed limiter that puts the max speed at 2/3 power. Once the rider leans forward at this max speed, the device should abruptly apply full power to force the rider into the backward position, and then reverse direction in the wheels, applying a force equal or barely higher than the gravitational force in the Y-Axis to slow them down (without crashing them into the ground).

Creating a Segway as functional as the real one is not easy. I’m sure the programmers have implemented some ingeneous algorithms to act as fail-safes. The purpose there is not to get sued. As you can see, some rudimentary physics and trigonometry are needed to create such a device.

Thanks for explaining the turning in place thing as well as many other things. I knew about the torque being equal and opposite and that sort of thing but I forgot about one side cancelling the other in an axial spin of the machine. I completely understand everything now.

For motors, I plan on using one 24V wheelchair motor (right angle drive with internal reduction) per side of the machine directly connected to a 16" diameter wheel. (with additional axle support of course) I don’t know what kind of torque they have but they go about 115 rpm max no load at 24V. These motors are fairly large, about 4" in diameter and 8 inches long for just the motor part itself. So, I was thinking it wouldn’t have any trouble with the task especially with it’s slow rpm after the reduction. The torque has got to be there, I just don’t know the exact number.

Can someone tell me if wheelchair motors would be suited for this project in the manner I described? I know the Knight Krawler uses window motors and the Craigway uses FP’s both of which are considerably less pwerful. Don’t worry about size, I just want to know if the wheelchair motors will be powerful enough to directly turn 16" wheels.

Do you have any specifications on the motors? All you need to know is max RPM and stall torque and you can find it out.

Power output= free speed/2 (RPM) * stall torque/2 (Nm) * 2pi/60 (unit-related, do a google search for motor power)
Electrical Input Power = Voltage * Stall Current / 2

Power output is always the highest at 1/2 the free speed / stall torque. The 2pi/60 is to convert RPM to rad/sec. Additional conversion factors are needed if the torque is not expressed in newton meters.

The torque and speed can be adjusted accordingly using gears, all we need to know is the power output of the motor (not power input, which is voltage times current).

EDIT: Fixed power equation.

The only information I have to go by is this

24 VOLT-7.5 AMP—RPM 115 —O/P-60 IN. LBS. CONT DUTY

I don’t know what exactly that all means. I couldn’t imagine the max power is only 180 W for a motor of that size.

*Originally posted by sanddrag *
**The only information I have to go by is this

24 VOLT-7.5 AMP—RPM 115 —O/P-60 IN. LBS. CONT DUTY

I don’t know what exactly that all means. I couldn’t imagine the max power is only 180 W for a motor of that size. **

Check out my Technical Library. It’s loaded with useful stuff. I should update it, since I have more. I’ll have to talk to BM about that…
The link you need is under Mechanical - Motor Power.

Max Power = (115/2 RPM * 60/2 in-lbs * 0.0118) = 20.355W
Elec Power = 24V * 7.5A/2 = 90W

Unfortunately, those motors are far too weak to power a device such as a Segway. They aren’t very efficient either…

For comparison, the CIM:
Max Power = (5342/2 RPM * 346.9/2 Oz-in * 0.00074) = 342.8W
Elec Power = 12V * 114A/2 = 685W

The Bosch Drill:
Max Power = (19,670/2 RPM * 0.870/2 N-m * 0.1047) = 447.0W
Elec Power = 12V * 127A/2 = 762W

The drill seems more powerful at first glance, but also it’s extremely optimized for the forward direction. You can expect 15% less power when operating in reverse.

Try to talk to Dave from 112. He built a Seg and he can give you some insight.

<Famous Quote> There are three types of people in this world:
The foolish ones who never learn from mistakes; The smart ones who learn from their own mistakes; and the wise ones who learn from other people’s MISTAKES </Famous Quote>

Be a WISE person if you are trying to do this!!! :slight_smile: