Posted by Robert Hennessy at 1/29/2001 10:06 PM EST
Student on team #254, Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Preparatory.
We are having great difficulty developing a program that uses gyrochip to automatically balance the robot. Also, has any team developed a robot that can balance automatically without relying on the gyrochip. Any help and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance.
Posted by Joe Johnson at 1/29/2001 10:18 PM EST
Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.
In Reply to: Balancing
Posted by Robert Hennessy on 1/29/2001 10:06 PM EST:
While I know that this year is a special year in terms
of cooperation, again, I think that this type of
information falls under the trade secrets domain.
If a team does figure out how to do this, I say more
power to them. I would not expect them to share this
information with everyone else. They worked hard, they
thought hard, they should get the benefit of that hard
work and thinking.
Specifically, they should stand out in the crowd at
their regionals and at the nationals and either score
high enough to be a drafting team or be outstanding
enough to be drafted by those that are drafting.
Helping teams that need help is one thing, giving away
your trade secrets that make you less competitive is
yet another thing altogether.
Am I out in left field on this? Please comment.
Joe J.
P.S. As the ONLY team that has never finished lower
than first place at a regional they attended, Cheesy
Poofs ought to publishing THEIR trade secrets rather
than asking others to share theirs 
Posted by Jay Lundy at 1/29/2001 10:23 PM EST
Student on team #254, The Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Preparatory.
In Reply to: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Joe Johnson on 1/29/2001 10:18 PM EST:
I’m glad were so well-known but almost every member of the team is a rookie this year. The team moved from Broadway to Bellarmine this year.
Of course thats no excuse for not doing well.
Posted by Alan Federman at 1/30/2001 9:46 AM EST
Engineer on team #255, Odyssey, from Foothill HS, San Jose and NASA.
In Reply to: Re: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Jay Lundy on 1/29/2001 10:23 PM EST:
: I’m glad were so well-known but almost every member of the team is a rookie this year. The team moved from Broadway to Bellarmine this year.
: Of course thats no excuse for not doing well.
I think this year teams that co-operate and practice
before the competition will do better in the long run than teams that stay aloof. The perfect robot can’t
win by itself.
I think this year’s compettion will be similar to last year’s in that getting into the finals and winning the finals will be very different. To get in you need to be versatile, and to win you need to have four specialists. Sounds a lot like how we won last year!
This year’s contest will be like “Survivor” - alliances made prior to the competition may ultimately dictate the outcome.
Now if we could only decide what to make our robot versatile about - we’d have a chance.
Posted by Jason Morrella at 1/30/2001 3:56 PM EST
Coach on team #254, Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Prep & others and NASA Ames/Cypress Semiconductor/Unity Care.
In Reply to: Re: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Jay Lundy on 1/29/2001 10:23 PM EST:
: I’m glad were so well-known but almost every member of the team is a rookie this year. The team moved from Broadway to Bellarmine this year.
: Of course thats no excuse for not doing well.
Don’t worry Jay - you guys are doing great so far. We’re actually ahead of where we’ve been the last two years at this point, mostly due to all the new students and how well you guys have been doing. We’ve been very impressed, and the new students have actually exceeded our hopes & expectations.
I know the first year can be a little intimidating - especially for a freshman 
But worry not - you guys are working very hard, have learned a lot, have made many improvements, and are working great as a team & with other teams - which is really what this entire program is all about, so the year is already a success regardless of what place the robot comes in. Rest assurred, you will have a great time at the competitions.
See you later today.
(I think I’ve used up my quota of forum posts for the week)
Posted by Ken Leung at 1/29/2001 10:54 PM EST
Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.
In Reply to: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Joe Johnson on 1/29/2001 10:18 PM EST:
In this year’s competition, it is certainly all right to share general information to other teams, because the more teamd that do better in the competition, the more chances you will get a better score along with them. But when it come down to details of the robot, teams have every right to keep the technical information secret.
After all,this is still a competition, and even more of a production competition this year because the random factor of head-to-head fighting is gone. The robot with the edge will shine the most. For this reason teams are still pushing for their best ability in producing a prefect robot, and some teams will be able to do so because of lots of reasons, while other teams can’t quite get that because of other reasons will learn even more from this experience in their path for perfection.
People learn more by figuring things themselves, and never learn anything if they just get an answer and reproduce it. After all, engineering are developed by people, not some lifeless textbook. You don’t see a textbook sitting in front of a drill press putting cheese-hole on the robot.
Teams will get a cutting edge by working really hard, and they deserve such a position because of what they’ve done. Maybe it might be unfair to other teams that do not have as much knowledge as the winning team, but that’s because of the way of how the competition work, not because of the winning team.
So I say, work hard, think hard, and cheer hard at the competition.
Posted by nick237 at 1/29/2001 11:24 PM EST
Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.
In Reply to: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Joe Johnson on 1/29/2001 10:18 PM EST:
But Joe. Isnt that what FIRST wants us to do, give up all the info available and share. Theres no competition so why not just give it up?
nick237
: While I know that this year is a special year in terms
: of cooperation, again, I think that this type of
: information falls under the trade secrets domain.
: If a team does figure out how to do this, I say more
: power to them. I would not expect them to share this
: information with everyone else. They worked hard, they
: thought hard, they should get the benefit of that hard
: work and thinking.
: Specifically, they should stand out in the crowd at
: their regionals and at the nationals and either score
: high enough to be a drafting team or be outstanding
: enough to be drafted by those that are drafting.
: Helping teams that need help is one thing, giving away
: your trade secrets that make you less competitive is
: yet another thing altogether.
: Am I out in left field on this? Please comment.
: Joe J.
: P.S. As the ONLY team that has never finished lower
: than first place at a regional they attended, Cheesy
: Poofs ought to publishing THEIR trade secrets rather
: than asking others to share theirs
Posted by Glenn M. Krcek at 1/31/2001 6:28 AM EST
Other on team #226, Manhatan Project, from Troy and Athens High and GM CRW.
In Reply to: Re: Trade Secrets…“give em up”
Posted by nick237 on 1/29/2001 11:24 PM EST:
: But Joe. Isnt that what FIRST wants us to do, give up all the info available and share. Theres no competition so why not just give it up?
: nick237
:
The Team that fails this year Could Potentially be the Team that you are COMPETITING WITH, NOT AGAINST this year. If there wasn’t open computer architecures and sharing in the computer world, then we wouldn’t be communicating via the Internet today.
Anyone who doesn’t appreciate this should locate a book titled “The Hackers” author? It’s all about the early computer days and how a bunch of MIT student hackers shaped the future of computers we have today.
Their early dream was open architectures, which eventually spawned off the Internet of today.
My point is: with First making competition a combined sharing we should all be pulling for the other teams NOW MORE THAN EVER!
We don’t build it for them, we just share what we know and ULTIMATELY we all BENEFIT from SYNERGY.
The SUM OF THE PARTS IS GREATER THAN THE WHOLE.
THe students will have plenty of opportunity to develop Trade Secrets once they enter industry.
Just my philosophical two cents worth.
The winners are ALL the contestants, and NOT THE FINALISTS. I plan to cheer just as hard this year for Delphi and others as for our own team!
Posted by Joe Ross at 1/30/2001 12:14 AM EST
Engineer on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.
In Reply to: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Joe Johnson on 1/29/2001 10:18 PM EST:
I agree with Dr. Joe. A team that can balance using the only control system should stand up and be recognized, but they shouldn’t give up their secrets (unless they want to).
: P.S. As the ONLY team that has never finished lower
: than first place at a regional they attended, Cheesy
: Poofs ought to publishing THEIR trade secrets rather
: than asking others to share theirs
I’ll share the Cheesy Poofs secret:
Strategy…strategy…strategy…and Jason Morella.
After losing to them in two regionals and teaming up with them to win several off-season competitions, I can say the Jason has by far the best eye for strategy of anyone that I worked with.
Much like I would love to get Dr. Joe to help us with our robot design, I would love to borrow Jason to help us whip our strategy into shape.
Joe Ross
Beach Bot, Team 330
Posted by Jason Morrella at 1/30/2001 3:45 PM EST
Coach on team #254, Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Prep & others and NASA Ames/Cypress Semiconductor/Unity Care.
In Reply to: Re: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Joe Ross on 1/30/2001 12:14 AM EST:
Thank you though, I appreciate the kind words. To be honest, we have a few members of the team who are really great with strategy (namely, one of our two engineers, Steve Kyramarios). Probably our biggest strength as a team is communication - Steve, myself, our other engineer Bob Holmes, and the students share ideas and differences of opinion very constructively, and usually come up with the best solution. Plus the students and adults work together so much, so long, so hard, and get along so well, that they communicate VERY well at the competitions and the drivers & coaches are all on the same page in terms of goals & strategy in the matches. The best strategy in the world won’t matter if the robot doesn’t perform and the kids don’t drive extrememly well - which our students have been very good at the last two years.
It would also be unfair not to point out a glaring fact - we didn’t win anything alone and were EXTREMELY lucky to have some of the best programs in the country as our partners (teams 60, 330, 64, 100, 232, & 364)are all amazing. We wouldn’t have been successfull at all without getting being paired with such great allies.
It was a pleasure getting to team with the Beach Bots a couple of times this year. When I hear teams discuss who the best West Coast programs might be right now - I have yet to hear a discussion that didn’t include team 330. Your team leadership is very impressive - between yourself, Kris, Rick, other adults, and some incredible kids - we have been nothing but impressed by the communication and quality always shown by the Beach Bots. 330, along with the other top West Coast programs (60,64,100,192,232,22,115, and others) who have consistantly performed at the top of every event they have entered over the past few years, provide great models for new teams to follow and learn from.
That list of incredible programs is sure to grow this year, especially seeing how impressive the new teams from Hawaii, Alaska, Washington, and California were last year - I can’t wait to see them all and compete with them this year. I’m really looking forward to the competitions.
Posted by Jason Morrella at 1/30/2001 3:15 PM EST
Coach on team #254, Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Prep & others and NASA Ames/Cypress Semiconductor/Unity Care.
In Reply to: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Joe Johnson on 1/29/2001 10:18 PM EST:
Joe, you’re not out in left field. I think everyone agrees that helping other teams is a great aspect of FIRST, and few do it better than ChiefDelphi - and there is nothing wrong with a team keeping their major developments which are key to success in the game to themselves (after all, they’re only secret for one year anyway)
Robert wasn’t asking any team to give away any detailed secrets, just ideas & experiences. Our kids have found out, like most other teams, that the Gyro doesn’t do what they had hoped, so they are trying other methods. Robert was just trying to get a feel for what method other teams have found works best for them - he certainly wasn’t asking for programming, design sketches, or anything of that detail.
One of the things I love most about the Regionals & Nationals is seeing what “trade secrets” teams have come up with - which is then public knowledge and raises the bar for everyone.
Many teams, like the TechnoKats (45), Kingman (60), and the Chief (47) have been invaluable to us over our first 2 years in giving advice and pointers. It took us 3 years, and incorporating “trade secrets” shared by the TechnoKats & Kingman along with our improvments to finally come up with a MUCH better motor mount & drive system this year than we have had before (we hope). When we found out some local teams were struggling last week, we decided to make extras and let a few other teams (ranging from rookie teams in San Jose to the Foothill 255 team) use our same drive system & motor mounts. It’s certainly not a major advancement like ChiefDelphi frequently comes up with, but it is solid & reliable and can hopefully help those teams improve.
My point is - part of the reason we are more than happy to help others is because of the help some of the top teams in the country (45,60,47, and others) have been willing to give us - it’s a nice cycle and makes everyone better in the long run.
And thanks for the recognition Joe - it is much appreciated coming from a program we continute to look up to - although I doubt we could possibly provide any “trade secrets” which the Chief hasn’t already tried or mastered over the years. I must say - it was a thrill for our team to finally get to play with the Chief in a match in Florida last year, you guys are awesome.
I’m off - have a great week everyone.
Posted by Andy Baker at 1/31/2001 11:40 AM EST
Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.
In Reply to: Re: Trade Secrets…
Posted by Jason Morrella on 1/30/2001 3:15 PM EST:
: Many teams, like the TechnoKats (45), Kingman (60), and the Chief (47) have been invaluable to us over our first 2 years in giving advice and pointers.
Jason,
Thank you very much for your kind words… I often relate what you tell me to our students and they appreciate what you say. We appreciate your recognition, but we “share” stuff for other reasons:
We may be a bit more open with our designs, but what we give away are previous years designs, not our designs from this year.
One of the things that will draw the most attention to our pit this year will be our new drill motor mount design. There is an added a feature that will make jaws drop (and maybe hats eaten).
Much like ChiefDelphi and others, we still keep trade secrets, 'cause this still is a competition.
Andy B.
Posted by nick237 at 1/29/2001 11:19 PM EST
Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.
In Reply to: Balancing
Posted by Robert Hennessy on 1/29/2001 10:06 PM EST:
Robert. The gyro chip in the kit is very poor quality and really wont work as a balance. Its just too cheap.
Your better off making your own with potentiometers.
The kit gyro wont work fast enough to counter the bridge as it tips over, by the time the gyro kicks in its too late.
nick237
: We are having great difficulty developing a program that uses gyrochip to automatically balance the robot. Also, has any team developed a robot that can balance automatically without relying on the gyrochip. Any help and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
: Thank you in advance.
Posted by Jeremy at 1/30/2001 8:39 AM EST
Student on team #95 from Lebanon high school.
In Reply to: Balancing
Posted by Robert Hennessy on 1/29/2001 10:06 PM EST:
i am on team 95 and we have developed a program use’s the gyrochip to balance the bridge.
Posted by Joe Ross at 1/30/2001 4:08 PM EST
Engineer on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.
In Reply to: Balancing
Posted by Robert Hennessy on 1/29/2001 10:06 PM EST:
We have started to develop a program to automatically balance. Our first attempts to run the program on last year’s robot were much like the first few times our drivers tried to balance, it reacted to late and to much.
We are currently using the gyro chip and also a custom built sensor to tell whether we are titled or not. We are probably going to add another sensor or two to make things easier and more reliable.
Thats about all we have right now. In a few weeks we will know if we are succesful or not.
Joe Ross
Beach Bot, Team 330
Posted by Matt Starkey at 1/31/2001 8:24 AM EST
Engineer on team #236, Techno Ticks, from Lyme/Old-Lyme High School and Millstone Power Station.
In Reply to: Balancing
Posted by Robert Hennessy on 1/29/2001 10:06 PM EST:
: We are having great difficulty developing a program that uses gyrochip to automatically balance the robot. Also, has any team developed a robot that can balance automatically without relying on the gyrochip. Any help and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
: Thank you in advance.
We haven’t quite figured out the gyro yet, but we are getting there. As for a balancing act, with out actively using the gyro, we are using one now that uses the gyro as a trigger for a programmed response only. That is, at the slightest detection of a tip, the robot automatically drives backwards and then forwards and then stops. It is not very sophisticated, but it works like 95% of the time. Two goals, one goal, uneven ammount of balls doesn’t seem to affect it, but we have only been testing it for three days. The big drawback to this balancing strategy is that if it doesn’t work on the first try, the robot has to try again. And if it continues to miss the magic balancing point, there is not much you can do, unless you can use the operator interface inputs to adjust the drive distances or speeds on the fly (Hint Hint: it is working on the Techno Tick).
As for the “Trade Secrets”, this is not a very sophisticated balanceing strategy. If you haven’t gotten this to work in a week, we will post the code for all to see.
The Techno Ticks are on the MOVE!