This rule doesn’t make any sense to me. Why would GDC want us to perform the somewhat trivial task of disassembling and reassembling all of our batteries just so that we can bring them in to the competition? What’s the “intent” of this ruling? What positive impact does it have on the FIRST competition?
While I’m usually one of the ones talking about contradictions and the like, this isn’t one of them. Just mentioning that the battery and its leads are excepted doesn’t make them an indivisible assembly for the purposes of all of the rules.
Actually, the GDC’s ruling is correct, based on the established definitions in the rules. The problem is that never have these definitions been applied to the batteries in this manner. That may have been due to a collective oversight, or may have been a natural extension of the special treatment that the batteries have long received (exemptions from weight, special conditions on use, etc.). Either way, it comes as a surprise to most.
There’s also the issue of whether the GDC’s answer is a good policy in general. I don’t think it is. Many teams don’t want to be burdened with rules that don’t have much utility; some ignore the rules, some comply, unhappily. I think that some flexibility (issued in an update) would be advantageous, because it would be a sign that the GDC was willing to work toward a solution that benefits the participants collectively, while still maintaining the primacy of the rules.
On the other hand, it was suggested to me that by changing the rule at this point, FIRST would be disadvantaging the teams that complied properly in the first place. I’m normally a strong proponent of this rationale (precisely because teams will often ignore rules that they figure they can get away with) but I’m wondering, with the apparent scope of this confusion, whether there’s more value in adjusting the rules for leniency, and bringing the rules in line with past practice (despite the fact that that practice may not have been technically legal in the past).
I doubt there is any teat that *explicitly *shipped their batteries because they knew they would be considered part of withholding allowance otherwise.
Okay, thank you very much for that. Apologies for not seeing that sooner!
I know this does sound like lawyering the rules, but what if a VENDOR sold the specified MK ES17-12 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery (the one provided in the 2007-2009 FRC KOP) with the connectors and leads already attached to the battery. If this was true then we would avoid a great deal of Thursday work. We could do this because the battery would then be considered COTS given the team did not modify the COTS product prior to bringing it into their competition.
If you purchased the battery connector from Andymark
You could then consider this COTS… and an unlimited number could come in.
You are correct that if someone sold the battery and connector together AND you purchased them… they could be considered COTS…
I personally find this (not your comment) ridiculous.
Why go out and purchase AM connectors OR some battery/cable combination just to use this rule?
We used a pneumatic crimper to put on the kit/supplied connectors correctly so we could use them during build season. (Just like we have done before this year…) We also use shrink tubing to protect them…
Now we will have to cut off our crimps/shrink wrap… crimp with some stop-gap method (because we have no pneumatic air supply at the event…) and redo the shrink wrap…simply because we followed a standard, safe, practice that we have used before and have never been called on and didn’t expect to be before the ship date.
I don’t disagree that by “strict interpretation” that the battery connectors are not COTS… I do disagree when a rule gives teams an advantage because they can purchase a solution and stay under the weight limit by spending more money.
I think that the rule is designed to prevent teams from developing new designs and continuing to work on more than 40 lbs of them after ship date. What advantage does a team have to working on their battery connectors after the ship date?
As I have mentioned before, I believe that the 40 lb rule was designed so that teams could keep their control system and some other subsystem and continue to try to figure out how to use it throughout the season because the control system was new to FRC…
I am wondering what will happen at an event if a team brings in more than 40 lbs… when they find out about the battery rule.
I know many teams that have 6-8 (or more)batteries… and have always had that many for all other years…
2008 rule
The entire ROBOT(including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) and OPERATOR CONSOLE must be crated and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in Section 4.5.1.1.
Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the ROBOT.
2007 rule
The entire ROBOT (including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) and OPERATOR CONSOLE must be crated and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in Section 4.5.1.1.
Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site.
2006 rule
R29> Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS,REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/orupgrade their robot at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the robot during
the competition must arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the robot.
Were we ALL in ignorant noncompliance for all of those years if we didn’t ship the batteries with the robot? The rules about shipping batteries have changed over the years… some years we MUST ship batteries (and operator console) and other years we were told that it was not necessary…
If you had 2 batteries and had connected them in the years that it was optional… you were in noncompliance.
Let’s just make this easy on everyone… and encourage batteries to be excluded in the rules…the same way the operator console is specifically excluded from the 40 lb rule. It is really just busy work to have to attach and reattach our battery cables at every event…what is the point? We are not redesigning the cable mount… or gaining any real advantage…
I’m going to chime in with this being one of the (few) advantage of shipping from England. For whatever silly reason, we can not ship the batteries in our crate, nor can we back them as luggage on the plane. Instead, we get one or two from FIRST, and then try to beg and borrow more batteries from other teams to practice and run with.
I get to just sit back, say “Man, that sucks” and go on trying to figure out if the cRIO can be in a carry on.
Wetzel
But Wetzel, it does potentially affect you. Maybe that team that might have lent you a battery out of its supply of 8 now decides instead of dealing with the hassle of all the leads, they will only have 4 batteries at the event. They will have enough for their team to get by, but not any to lend out.
And as a footnote to those who have been saying, “We shipped the batteries” or “We would have shipped the batteries had we known of this” - that requires disconnecting the leads.
So beside a cost savings of carrying them in yourself, if the leads are allowed to be attached, you have a time savings over other teams that shipped.
That doesn’t make this a good decision - the precedent set over the last several years argues against making this decision now. Even in years when you had to ship batteries with the robot, you only had to ship the batteries from that year’s kit, if I recall correctly. You could have brought extra batteries from prior years (if they met the specs for current batteries) or others that you had purchased new.
One other bad sidebar to this - the Anderson connectors should be built new each year. You can use an old battery, but you can’t use a fabricated item built before kickoff. Don’t anyone DARE ask that question to Q&A!!! Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
If this ruling stands,i wonder if First in Michigan could change it.We do have different rules already.
While your at it maybe you could get rid of <G24-A> too. :rolleyes:
What Q&A post did the original ruling come from? I was looking through the consolidated Q&A, and voila:
Withholding Allowance - Batteries
Posted by FRC178 at 02/16/2009 08:45:29 pm
The withholding allowance allows:
Thing is, it does not specify what “in compliance with Rule <R38>” means, but it is a start.
Edit: Ok, here is what I get for not looking through the rules. <R38> is the rule that specifies the type of battery that may be used, not anything about the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Therefore, it seems, unless the Q&A mentioned at the beginning of the thread was made after this post, unlimited batteries can be brought to competitions.
Sure, you can bring all the BATTERIES you want, but you can’t bring all the batteries you want.
No offense, but being sarcastic won’t really help you here (although being SARCASTIC might). Even if you have your mind set on not bringing your batteries to the competitions, please don’t try to ruin it for people who do. As far as I can see, the Q&A ruling is pretty specific on allowing us to bring unlimited batteries.
BATTERY to battery as is BUMPER to bumper. Oh ,nevermind, the wife doesn’t like my jokes either.
The question asked to the GDC was regarding a “battery” compared to a “battery assembly”- they are not the same thing. It was clear that you could bring unlimited batteries (that would be like they come in the box - no connectors installed), but it was not clear about assembled batteries - with connectors installed.
the decision provided by the GDC is consistent with other parts - i.e. you can bring in spare motors as unlimited COTS, but if you install a sprocket on it then it is an assembly or mechanism, and part of the weight restrictions.
batteries have always been an exception to many of the other rules, and most of us assumed the same exception for this year, but the question was asked to avoid a surprise on Thursday morning and to get an official response. Many of us do not like or agree with the response, and maybe it will change, but for now it is the ruling and so we are adapting to it and will be compliant.
You’re correct, but if we look at the INTENT of the 40 lb withholding allowance rules (as we are told to do by the GDC) it is to allow us to keep the control system back to work on it (which requires batteries with leads to power by the way). I even understand clarification needed on what is considered COTS and what is a MECHANISM, but I can’t believe the intent of the whole thing is to keep teams from gaining an advantage by pre-wiring their batteries. There is no advantage - it is a waste of time to disconnect batteries just to walk in the door and reconnect them - the ruling is asinine and needs to be corrected.
Sorry - I’m obviously somewhat bitter about this one. I know its a relatively small thing, but it’s been stacked on top of a bunch of what seems to be unnecessary lawyering of rules done by the GDC this year. It’s putting a serious damper on what should be a very fun process.
I am usually not one to criticize, but having to reattach the wires to the batteries this year is a real pain in the tuchus. How legal of them.
:mad:
agreed this is quite ridiculous of them… But you know what i dont really care, il take em off and get someone to reattach them… Big deal.
Correction: it is a waste of time to disconnect batteries just to walk in the door, weight the disconnected leads as part of the 40lb limit, and reconnect them.
(Note, I am not sure if there will or will not be weighing of the 40lbs allowance, Bills Blog says “weighed if necessary”)
If you attached lugs to your batteries (which you probably did, unless you bought them COTS from AndyMark) they could be considered a FABRICATED ITEM and thus subject to the weight limit. Those 6 gauge wires weight enough that they could push you over the limit if you are not careful.
I also wonder if old batteries (not MK ES17-12) are subject to this ruling? They are legal to use in practice matches (could be useful if you are still attaching leads to the other batteries) and the pit but not in the actual competition.
It just doesn’t make sense to me to include batteries in any weight limit if they are excluded from the 120lbs robot weight limit . I think bumpers should be excluded too (but they are not).