I’m going to chime in with this being one of the (few) advantage of shipping from England. For whatever silly reason, we can not ship the batteries in our crate, nor can we back them as luggage on the plane. Instead, we get one or two from FIRST, and then try to beg and borrow more batteries from other teams to practice and run with.
I get to just sit back, say “Man, that sucks” and go on trying to figure out if the cRIO can be in a carry on.
Wetzel
But Wetzel, it does potentially affect you. Maybe that team that might have lent you a battery out of its supply of 8 now decides instead of dealing with the hassle of all the leads, they will only have 4 batteries at the event. They will have enough for their team to get by, but not any to lend out.
And as a footnote to those who have been saying, “We shipped the batteries” or “We would have shipped the batteries had we known of this” - that requires disconnecting the leads.
So beside a cost savings of carrying them in yourself, if the leads are allowed to be attached, you have a time savings over other teams that shipped.
That doesn’t make this a good decision - the precedent set over the last several years argues against making this decision now. Even in years when you had to ship batteries with the robot, you only had to ship the batteries from that year’s kit, if I recall correctly. You could have brought extra batteries from prior years (if they met the specs for current batteries) or others that you had purchased new.
One other bad sidebar to this - the Anderson connectors should be built new each year. You can use an old battery, but you can’t use a fabricated item built before kickoff. Don’t anyone DARE ask that question to Q&A!!! Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
If this ruling stands,i wonder if First in Michigan could change it.We do have different rules already.
While your at it maybe you could get rid of <G24-A> too. :rolleyes:
What Q&A post did the original ruling come from? I was looking through the consolidated Q&A, and voila:
Withholding Allowance - Batteries
Posted by FRC178 at 02/16/2009 08:45:29 pm
The withholding allowance allows:
Thing is, it does not specify what “in compliance with Rule <R38>” means, but it is a start.
Edit: Ok, here is what I get for not looking through the rules. <R38> is the rule that specifies the type of battery that may be used, not anything about the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Therefore, it seems, unless the Q&A mentioned at the beginning of the thread was made after this post, unlimited batteries can be brought to competitions.
Sure, you can bring all the BATTERIES you want, but you can’t bring all the batteries you want.
No offense, but being sarcastic won’t really help you here (although being SARCASTIC might). Even if you have your mind set on not bringing your batteries to the competitions, please don’t try to ruin it for people who do. As far as I can see, the Q&A ruling is pretty specific on allowing us to bring unlimited batteries.
BATTERY to battery as is BUMPER to bumper. Oh ,nevermind, the wife doesn’t like my jokes either.
The question asked to the GDC was regarding a “battery” compared to a “battery assembly”- they are not the same thing. It was clear that you could bring unlimited batteries (that would be like they come in the box - no connectors installed), but it was not clear about assembled batteries - with connectors installed.
the decision provided by the GDC is consistent with other parts - i.e. you can bring in spare motors as unlimited COTS, but if you install a sprocket on it then it is an assembly or mechanism, and part of the weight restrictions.
batteries have always been an exception to many of the other rules, and most of us assumed the same exception for this year, but the question was asked to avoid a surprise on Thursday morning and to get an official response. Many of us do not like or agree with the response, and maybe it will change, but for now it is the ruling and so we are adapting to it and will be compliant.
You’re correct, but if we look at the INTENT of the 40 lb withholding allowance rules (as we are told to do by the GDC) it is to allow us to keep the control system back to work on it (which requires batteries with leads to power by the way). I even understand clarification needed on what is considered COTS and what is a MECHANISM, but I can’t believe the intent of the whole thing is to keep teams from gaining an advantage by pre-wiring their batteries. There is no advantage - it is a waste of time to disconnect batteries just to walk in the door and reconnect them - the ruling is asinine and needs to be corrected.
Sorry - I’m obviously somewhat bitter about this one. I know its a relatively small thing, but it’s been stacked on top of a bunch of what seems to be unnecessary lawyering of rules done by the GDC this year. It’s putting a serious damper on what should be a very fun process.
I am usually not one to criticize, but having to reattach the wires to the batteries this year is a real pain in the tuchus. How legal of them.
:mad:
agreed this is quite ridiculous of them… But you know what i dont really care, il take em off and get someone to reattach them… Big deal.
Correction: it is a waste of time to disconnect batteries just to walk in the door, weight the disconnected leads as part of the 40lb limit, and reconnect them.
(Note, I am not sure if there will or will not be weighing of the 40lbs allowance, Bills Blog says “weighed if necessary”)
If you attached lugs to your batteries (which you probably did, unless you bought them COTS from AndyMark) they could be considered a FABRICATED ITEM and thus subject to the weight limit. Those 6 gauge wires weight enough that they could push you over the limit if you are not careful.
I also wonder if old batteries (not MK ES17-12) are subject to this ruling? They are legal to use in practice matches (could be useful if you are still attaching leads to the other batteries) and the pit but not in the actual competition.
It just doesn’t make sense to me to include batteries in any weight limit if they are excluded from the 120lbs robot weight limit . I think bumpers should be excluded too (but they are not).
I have to interject a word of caution here. Don’t read into this it is simply a word of caution. IF the GDC does not make a change in this interpretation, then most teams will be sitting outside in the cold, cutting away carefully applied heatshrink and electrical tape used to insulate the battery terminals. Then they will be dropping tools on the exposed terminals, carrying the batteries against the conductive metal of their zippers and dangling chains around their necks or bumping into conductive parts on the people, backpacks and coats in front of them. Eager freshmen will tire of holding the battery while waiting patiently for the pits to open and in colder areas will not be able to grip the battery with gloves and drop it on themselves or others. Please keep in mind that the battery is 12 pounds and dropped from a distance of a few feet, can easily break toes and might damage the case to the point of leakage. Please also be aware that the battery is a 7200 watt device capable of 600+ amps and in the case of exposed terminals, can weld tools, chains and other metals. If you will be removing your battery cables to comply with this rule, be aware of the dangers. Plan accordingly when faced with this added hazard to minimize injury at your venue. Don’t take short cuts in safety even though it is only for a few minutes.
Very wise Al, thanks for the words of caution I know that we will benifit from them. Ecspecially since we will be attending the Buckeye regional which will be one of the cold regions that you are speaking of.
So, this is what I’m reading: the rule is not only asinine, but dangerous?
What Al is pointing out is that it can b dangerous if teams do not excercise caution while they are trying to stay legal. Just don’t make the Freshman be the only ones holding and working with the batteries take turns and come prepared.
Potentially. But is it the safest thing in the world to have a verifiable army of teenagers and adults cram themselves into a 10’x10’ space with robots that can launch trackballs over 6 foot overpasses, vomit squads of foam basketballs 20 feet and move 150 lbs of stuff at 17 fps? Probably not. Of course, making a potentially dangerous situation more hazardous is not very smart.
I understand that this issue is different (Although I too think unattaching our leads outside the door and reattaching them after crossing the threshold is one of the silliest things in the world), but I doubt anyone will come to serious harm. I’d be much more worried about robots that loose power on the field due to faulty connections. That drags everyone down, both on the team and in the stands.
Sometimes, I lose all respect for the GDC. Remember when we had to ship 2 batteries in the crate because of a dumb rule, causing many teams to go over the 400 lb limit and costing hundreds of dollars in unnecessary shipping?
This year we have yet another black sheep: Hundreds of exposed leads, hundreds of hours wasted, hundreds of students having to be miserable all so the GDC can be content with their rules? It’s a trend, but I don’t understand why it has to exist. Does the GDC have an ego problem? Do their stomachs wretch at the phrase “we made a mistake?”
GDC, I respect your work. I love the ideas and consideration that go into making a new game every year. But you are not perfect.
I’d be highly surprised if any member of the committee thought they were.
It seems like this thread has more or less said all there really is to say. We’re now aware of the GDC’s current interpretation of the rules, and (for the Understatement of the Week) I think there’s a feeling of the general consensus of ChiefDelphi users. I’d also note that this thread was started on Friday morning; I doubt that the discussion that has taken place here could’ve hit the radar of any of the appropriate people, let alone a solution implemented, before last Friday’s update went to press.
Perhaps it’d be best to give this thread the weekend off and only resume our collective howling/grumbling/offers-of-hugs-and-screwdrivers-to-Week-1-teams if the next Team Update (that’d be #15, for those playing at home) doesn’t offer some kind of amicable resolution or guidance? It’ll be cutting it close for the Week 1 set, yes, but there’s not much that can be done in the meantime besides entering the caption contest or finalizing some Fantasy FIRST picks. (Or, you know, sleep.)