Posted by Peter Krumdieck at 12/18/2000 12:10 PM EST
Engineer on team #353, Pobots, from POB Central School District.
How are you instructors / engineers overcoming the urge of the students to do a ‘battlebot’ and the whole battlebot mentality? I’ve tired to tell them that our 'bots are WAY cooler than those. It’s like designing and building an Indy car versus a Demo derby junker.
Posted by Matt Ryan at 12/18/2000 1:55 PM EST
Student on team #69, HYPER, from Quincy Public Schools and Gillette.
In Reply to: battlebots stigma
Posted by Peter Krumdieck on 12/18/2000 12:10 PM EST:
: How are you instructors / engineers overcoming the urge of the students to do a ‘battlebot’ and the whole battlebot mentality? I’ve tired to tell them that our 'bots are WAY cooler than those. It’s like designing and building an Indy car versus a Demo derby junker.
I agree with you partly. I feel that what we do is way cooler. But they also have to take into consideration everything we do. What makes ours better is that we have limits on what we do, making it more challenging (weight limit, size limit, etc.). They have limits that re easier to meet than we do.
-=Freshman=-
Posted by Dan at 12/18/2000 3:12 PM EST
Other on team - from Carnegie Mellon sponsored by -.
In Reply to: Re: battlebots stigma
Posted by Matt Ryan on 12/18/2000 1:55 PM EST:
I totally agree with Raul on this subject but I feel I need to (once again!) toss in my thoughts.
Of course you are welcome to say FIRST is ‘cooler’ but please don’t draw comparisons (like ‘better’) between the robots or competitions because:
A) the competitions are different
B) you probably don’t know enough about the BB robots and the motivations of their creators
As I said before, don’t confuse more constraints as more challenging because it’s the exact opposite. The difficulty of a design problem is proportional to the number of design possibilities that need to be considered. Less constraints means more possibilities means more difficulty.
Dan
Posted by Peter Krumdieck at 12/18/2000 5:55 PM EST
Engineer on team #353, Pobots, from POB Central School District.
In Reply to: Re: battlebots stigma
Posted by Dan on 12/18/2000 3:12 PM EST:
: I totally agree with Raul on this subject but I feel I need to (once again!) toss in my thoughts.
: Of course you are welcome to say FIRST is ‘cooler’ but please don’t draw comparisons (like ‘better’) between the robots or competitions because:
: A) the competitions are different
: B) you probably don’t know enough about the BB robots and the motivations of their creators
: As I said before, don’t confuse more constraints as more challenging because it’s the exact opposite. The difficulty of a design problem is proportional to the number of design possibilities that need to be considered. Less constraints means more possibilities means more difficulty.
: Dan
I guess stigma wasn’t exactly the smartest thing to say.
I agreee with all of your reply comments
Thanks for the insight!
-pete
Posted by Raul at 12/18/2000 2:19 PM EST
Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.
In Reply to: battlebots stigma
Posted by Peter Krumdieck on 12/18/2000 12:10 PM EST:
I am afraid this topic is becoming like politics and religion. And it could get worse. Let me tell you a true short story to make my point.
When my son was growing up we use to watch the Chicago Cubs games together and sometimes go to the park to see them. At one point when my son was in fourth grade or so he started to hate the Chicago White Sox. I asked him why. He said his friends liked the Sox and were making fun of him because he liked the Cubs. He was forced to defend his preference and it caused him to hate the Sox. And, his friends were no longer his friends. I tried to tell him that I liked both teams but I did prefer the Cubs. I would still cheer for the Sox against other teams but he always wanted them to lose no matter who they played. Now that he is much older, he told me that he realized that there is no reason to hate the Sox. I’m glad.
So what is my point? I’m afraid that by stating strong opinions about another robot competition, we will polarize some people and they will begin to hate FIRST. Do we really need to be so inflexible as to make students choose one competition over another? Why can’t they like both? Does it really take away from one if you enjoy another. Is it really against the FIRST principles to enjoy another robot competition? I sure hope not.
Yes, I still like FIRST better but I still enjoy Battlebots. If I had time to work on both, I would. Some teams have members that have done both. I bet they share my views.
Enough said.
Raul
Posted by Peter Krumdieck at 12/18/2000 5:50 PM EST
Engineer on team #353, Pobots, from POB Central School District.
In Reply to: Warning - Please be careful
Posted by Raul on 12/18/2000 2:19 PM EST:
: I am afraid this topic is becoming like politics and religion. And it could get worse. Let me tell you a true short story to make my point.
: When my son was growing up we use to watch the Chicago Cubs games together and sometimes go to the park to see them. At one point when my son was in fourth grade or so he started to hate the Chicago White Sox. I asked him why. He said his friends liked the Sox and were making fun of him because he liked the Cubs. He was forced to defend his preference and it caused him to hate the Sox. And, his friends were no longer his friends. I tried to tell him that I liked both teams but I did prefer the Cubs. I would still cheer for the Sox against other teams but he always wanted them to lose no matter who they played. Now that he is much older, he told me that he realized that there is no reason to hate the Sox. I’m glad.
: So what is my point? I’m afraid that by stating strong opinions about another robot competition, we will polarize some people and they will begin to hate FIRST. Do we really need to be so inflexible as to make students choose one competition over another? Why can’t they like both? Does it really take away from one if you enjoy another. Is it really against the FIRST principles to enjoy another robot competition? I sure hope not.
: Yes, I still like FIRST better but I still enjoy Battlebots. If I had time to work on both, I would. Some teams have members that have done both. I bet they share my views.
: Enough said.
: Raul
Raul:
I didn’t mean to imply that one was better. I LOVE to watch battlebots (and wouldn’t mind driving in a demo derby).
Given the design challange of FIRST I just feel that it’s a much more sophistocated thing. Call me a snob, but no offense to Battle bots or Robo Wars, et al.
-pete
Posted by Korey R Kline at 12/19/2000 12:17 PM EST
Engineer on team #59, Ramtech, from Miami Coral Park HS and eAc / FIU.
In Reply to: Warning - Please be careful
Posted by Raul on 12/18/2000 2:19 PM EST:
I am re-posting this message because I believe that it’s relevant to this discussion. It was previously posted, but in the forum reformatting I believe many people missed it. Thanx K2
I can surely appreciate your devotion to F.I.R.S.T., as I too have been involved with F.I.R.S.T. for five years. Both of my sons have been on the team that we have here in Miami. Not only have they benefited from the experience but our whole family has been touched by it’s tremendous influence. I am however rather dismayed by your lack of insight into the whole BattleBots arena.
First of all the F.I.R.S.T. vision has been to have a world where kids think that science and technology is cool and that they be inspired to study the fields of science and technology. I see that happening with the kids who see BattleBots. You see we have a F.I.R.S.T. team AND a BattleBots team. One is not exclusive of the other. Just as the younger kids are encouraged to participate in a LEGO League team, our high school students are encouraged to be on the F.I.R.S.T. team. It is what is appropriate for them. The kids who were once on our high school team and who now mentor the high school kids as university students have a team where they can do the designing and building for competition for themselves. I love being involved with both teams simultaneously.
My job at the university is to get kids interested in engineering. As I visit middle schools and high schools I am bombarded daily by questions about BattleBots. My response to them is the same as I give to the few kids who ask about F.I.R.S.T. – is to study the upper levels of math and science so they too can design and build robots. For once it is a cool thing to be a smart kid, a technology oriented kid. BattleBots has done something really great here- it has got people talking – not only kids but adults who never thought about robots before.
I am part of the only all female team in BattleBots. Do you know how many girls are excited about that? They see what is on television and now they think that it just might be possible for them to be there too. BattleBots has opened a LOT of doors for kids to want to study electronics and physics and geometry. Yes it is not F.I.R.S.T but we don’t need another F.I.R.S.T., this is something to compliment F.I.R.S.T. - to validate F.I.R.S.T.
Two more things. I shared some of my information about BattleBots with my friends at F.I.R.S.T. The one thing that was surprising was that you would not know the difference between the pits at a regional or national event and a BattleBots event. There is that same camaraderie at BattleBots as there is at F.I.R.S.T. And contrary to your story, after the competition is over it is not uncommon to see the team that lost the match helping the winner to get ready for their next match. I witnessed that first hand in Las Vegas last month. The winner of the last match borrowed a motor from the guy he just beat in order to be ready for the next match. That is very much the pervasive feeling and attitude at BattleBots. To tell you the truth there were times during the F.I.R.S.T. National Competition that I was dismayed by some of the team’s aggressive behavior at the practice matches. You can find good and not so good everywhere. Your comment that Battlebots leaves out the sportmsmanship-like activities is not correct. Having participated in two competitions, one in San Francisco and one in Las Vegas I can attest to the great sportsmanship at both.
The last point I would like to make is that the guys who created and produced BattleBots are really great guys who have a lot of good ideas about directing some of their profits for educational purposes. In fact Trey Roski, the producer, very much admires Dean Kamen and wants to attend the National Competition at EPCOT in April. He was a kid who was thought of as a nerd and now has found a way to make entertainment out of cool things that have inspired lots of people.
We host an off-season F.I.R.S.T. event (one of the larger ones in fact) Mayhem in Miami. The first year we had only high school robots. Last year we had both F.I.R.S.T. Lego League and high school robots. This year we intend to have all three. Lego League, F.I.R.S.T. high school robots, and a display of BattleBot robots. Like I said before, one does not have to be exclusive of the other. There is room for all three. It’s like little league, high school and professional football. One does not make the other wrong.
The reason BattleBots is making so many viewers weekly regulars on T.V. is that it is something different and something that can evolve. Each season the old robots get better and better. I hope that this has been somewhat enlightening.
Signed –
Nola Garcia, Team 59, and a proud supporter of both US F.I.R.S.T. and BattleBots!!
You may email me at nola@eng.fiu.edu for any replies or questions.
Posted by Raul at 12/19/2000 12:57 PM EST
Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.
In Reply to: Battlebots vs FIRST
Posted by Korey R Kline on 12/19/2000 12:17 PM EST:
Well said Nola. Don’t let anyone discourage you.
Why don’t you get your own registered name for this forum instead of using Korey’s?
Raul
Posted by Andy Baker at 12/19/2000 1:54 PM EST
Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.
In Reply to: Battlebots vs FIRST
Posted by Korey R Kline on 12/19/2000 12:17 PM EST:
The way that Korey and Nola describe BattleBots reminds me of an old debate that use to take place in these forums…
The need for an upper division.
There were a few people (Joe J., and others) who have suggested (maybe wished) that a ‘professional FIRST league’ be started. Sound like this is how Ramtech (and others) treat BattleBots.
Sounds good to me!
Andy B.
Posted by bill whitley at 12/27/2000 2:19 PM EST
Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.
In Reply to: Upper Division
Posted by Andy Baker on 12/19/2000 1:54 PM EST:
I think an upper division could be beneficial to FIRST, and that it could also ruin FIRST as we know it. An upper division would give the first class teams better competition where they would not have to carry their alliance through the seeding matches, make things much more compeditive, and probably much more fun for them. But who would decide what teams were in the upper division? What if a high quality team did not want to be in the upper divison? Would upper class have the same game as the ‘lower’ class? Would the competitions be at the same time? An upper division could give rookie teams, and essentially all ‘lower’ class teams something more to shoot for.
The upper division would allow ‘lower’ class teams to compete against ‘lower’ class teams which would result in more wins for these teams, but less exposure to the ‘upper’ class teams that many, including myself, aspire to be a part of someday.
It could also create a divide among divisions. Now all teams are on a level playing field and the sportsmanship is excellent. Would the two divisions cause feelings of superiority, or inferiority? This could add a lot more politics to a system that does not have that level of politics at the moment. Is it really necessary? Would it really help? I’m not sure.
The ramblings of a ‘lower’ class team member…
-bill, team 70.
: The way that Korey and Nola describe BattleBots reminds me of an old debate that use to take place in these forums…
: The need for an upper division.
: There were a few people (Joe J., and others) who have suggested (maybe wished) that a ‘professional FIRST league’ be started. Sound like this is how Ramtech (and others) treat BattleBots.
: Sounds good to me!
: Andy B.
Posted by Joe Johnson at 12/19/2000 9:59 PM EST
Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.
In Reply to: Battlebots vs FIRST
Posted by Korey R Kline on 12/19/2000 12:17 PM EST:
Here is may take on BattleBots Vs. FIRST:
To me it is much like the difference between boxing and basketball.
In one the idea is to hit your opponent sufficiently hard that he cannot get back up. In the other, there may be rough picks set and there is a lot of pushing and shoving going on under the rim, but (and this is an important but), the objective is to score more points than your opponent not to disable your opponent.
That said, boxing is a real sport that a lot of people enjoy competing in and even more people love watching.
I admit that I have sketched up a number of robots that I believe could compete very well against any I have seen to date on BattleBots. Not to be too much of a robo-snob here, but doesn’t it drive you crazy to see such relatively poorly driven robots with such poor maneuverability. In my opinion, a typical FIRST robot with a bit of armor would win most of the BattleBot matches I have seen for the simple reason that the typical FIRST robots are so much more agile and so much more expertly driven. But I digress…
In the end, I decided that I am not really interested in playing the BattleBots game as it is currently marketed. Yes, I think I could do well, perhaps even do well enough to be on TV. When I imagined myself on TV, I thought how cool it would be to be able to call my mom and say, ‘Tell all your friends your son is famous!’
Being on TV is a big draw, no doubt about it. But… …then I imagined my mom’s friends actually WATCHING the show. My doubts began when I thought that it could have been ME outside the BattleBox being asked about my ‘great shaft work’ by the blond bimbo… er… ah… reporter. The doubts were confirmed when I though of my mom’s and my mom’s friend’s reaction to the suggestion by the colorman that a robot with a dangling appendage ‘strap a jock on that thing!’
Bottom line, there are a lot of folks who like boxing, even I stop my channel surfing to watch a round or two now and again, but… …I just don’t know that I am ready to put on the gloves just yet.
Joe J.
P.S. It is my hope that the success of BattleBots actually helps FIRST by encouraging other TV folks to start looking for robot competitions to fill the airwaves (cable bandwidth?). The herd mentality of prime time TV may work in our favor in this case.
Posted by Justin at 12/20/2000 4:31 PM EST
Other on team Blue Lightning Alumni Association from RWU sponsored by FIRST-A-holics Anonymous.
In Reply to: My take on BattleBots
Posted by Joe Johnson on 12/19/2000 9:59 PM EST:
Hi All,
First Let me start off w/complimenting Joe on his, as always collected, intriguing, and well stated opinions. One thing caught my attention. While I am a FIRSTer through and through I have watched Battlebots.
What caught my attention was the idea that FIRST Robots might fair well in the Bbot’s cage. I’ve been in a fair number of debates, arguments, etc. about this issue. I agree with Joe that with a little armor, which wouldn’t be a problem given that we wouldn’t have to keep the robots below 130lbs, and some offensive elements we could give Bbots a run for their money. Perhaps this is the answer to the question ‘Where do robot’s go when the season ends?’ What is the benefit to rigging up your robot and putting it in the Bbots wring?? Well for those of you who did the post-season circut the robot’s take a beating @ the invitationals (and most keep on tickin’). But if we were to encourage more of the cross over it would make the Bbots community more aware of the FIRST world and maybe they might cross over to our side to. I think that the Ramtech’s are blazing the trail of the future. We need not be so ‘snobish’ there is definetly room for both competitions. Plus if the Bbots audience sees a FIRST robot take out some of the Bbots then the might be like…hmm there’s some skill here let’s check out this FIRST thing to.
Just some thoughts, babble and banter,
Happy Holidays to the FIRST Community…
-Justin