[BB]: KOP info


This is going to be interesting. Keep an eye or so on the blog today, as more info could be coming out at any time.

There is a comparison of what Veterans will receive versus rookies on Bill’s Blog.



Very interesting. I wonder if someone can do some back of the envelope math to figure out the dollar value of the parts veterans will not receive this year?

Also, what about those teams that were out of the picture last year, but are coming back this year. They get the rookie KOP as far as controller is concerned. Are there different categories beside just rookie and veteran?
A second year team may be at the greatest disadvantage.

Why not just have an order list for all the parts and we pay the base cost for the regional. It seems like less and less of a savings to teams, but I’ll wait to see the math on it.

I wonder if veteran teams can pay rookie cost and get the “good” kit…

Please refer to: http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-about-returning-veteran-teams.html

Short answer: Veterans who didn’t compete last year will get the rookie kit at the rookie price.

I’d be interested in seeing a better cost breakdown, but my quick calc shows that the cost is about $1400 difference between the rookie kit and the veteran kit. I’d just as soon buy the rookie kit and have all the parts that I need rather than trying to order them À la carte and get zocked on shipping from lots of vendors.

It will be interesting to see how the cost accounting section of the manual is going to be worded now. There will almost certainly have to be some extra words in there to deal with the discrepancies between kits.

I’m not really sure how to feel about this, obviously less money is a good thing. But there are some components missing there that we would definitely have to order more of to supplement the lack of them in the kit which seems a little backwards to me.

I got a similar number, What annoys me is how much they publicized “we are decreasing the cost of registration”

From my standpoint the cost to teams actually went UP. For a $1000 decrease in registration teams (who want to keep a functioning robot) will now have to shell out $1400. That seems like an increase in cost.

Not to mention that while I am thankful many grants exist and are the lifeline for many teams, they mostly cover registration. So for example any team who was banking on a nasa grant* for their initial registration will now have to come up with 1400 more cash to cover the differences.

*this is not a stab at the grant process just an illustration on how this will effect many teams. We all appreciate that the grants exist and should never bite the hand that feeds, or any of another 100 or so sayings that could apply to this situation.

You only have to pay that extra $1400 if you choose not to pull last year’s parts from last year’s robot. For $1000 less than you paid for the 2009 registration, your veteran team will have everything that a 2010 rookie will. You just received some of it in the previous year’s Kit of Parts instead of the current year’s one.

I got $2105. See attached.

For those who came up with the $1400-range estimates, where are the differences between your tally and mine?

My number also doesn’t account for any shipping charges.

KOP Cost Difference - Unofficial.xls (17.5 KB)

KOP Cost Difference - Unofficial.xls (17.5 KB)

In my opinion a second year team should go and still get the rookie kit in order to better stock their inventory, the veteran package is for the benefit of “the veterans” who have seen the same wheel, servo, speed controller, ect. year after year and still have well stocked parts they could use.

The question is not whether a given team should get the extra inventory by way of the rookie kit, it is whether they can. If they are not allowed to, then the above is a moot point.

Personally, I think FIRST should have three kit options:
Rookie = Veteran + Control
Veteran = the standard hardware kit, minus the control system
Control = the control system

This way, anyone could opt to get an extra control system from one place, regardless of experience, instead of having to go around to 3-4 different vendors to piece it together or register as a rookie. But a veteran team without the money for another system can simply opt to do the Veteran kit, while one with enough to get three extra control systems could buy them (and hopefully give at least one of them to a nearby team who couldn’t get an extra).

You didn’t care about the two 20 cent standoffs?:slight_smile:

Just for yuks I took a look at the cost of shipping & handling for the 2 standoffs. Shipping them alone- as part of a larger order there wouldn’t be any shipping cost, of course, but where’s the fun in that?

For $.40 in parts, it’d cost $9.00 to have them shipped.

Okay, okay, local parts supply will have them too …:stuck_out_tongue:

Remember too that plastic pneumatic fittings were not included in the KOP last year which I think makes it much harder on the rookies to even try pneumatics.

If you wanted to do a full accounting I noticed that there will be some additional costs for parts not mentioned, but that obviously won’t be included in the kit either. Such as the pressure relief valve ($27.20) and the cRIO power connectors (not included BTW in our team’s cRIO order).

Keep in mind none of the super veteran teams get a second cRIO, the most expensive item in the kit, and other control system parts, so they’re just as unwell stocked. Stuff like the compressor, etc. makes more sense though (I think my team hasn’t used an onboard compressor yet…)

I figure this is better than them having to raise costs, which would get many of the same complaints without any opportunity for anyone who doesn’t need all the parts to cut funding. So it might not be a savings, but it’s still alright in my opinion.

Consider this: If your team didn’t use an onboard compressor even one year in its history and you feel you need one now, that’s most of the difference right there. With that and the battery charger, even if my team bought everything else removed from the KoP they’d still come up a few dollars short.

**Note: **Above based on the $1400 estimate; $2000+ is significantly more upsetting for me.

This is the route we are most likely going to take. We need the chargers, Jags (yuk!), the battery, and the extra goodies that we haven’t been able to stockpile. We also understand the need for the extra cRio to get the programmers up to speed ASAP.

Interesting to see the Victors still on the list, but WOW we are getting shorted a lot more than I thought. No charger, only one battery, only two jaguar speed controls. Seems all hopes of restoring/preserving old robots are really out the window now. Oh well, maybe there will be some new and exciting stuff in the kit.

I’m trying to leave a comment on Bill’s Blog that is more substantive than, “you lie,” but that’s pretty well how I feel about how this “price reduction” has been handled.

FIRST really ought to own up to and explain the increased costs and challenges of operating in an economy that very nearly imploded or hire a better public relations person. They’ve done a poor job of making these changes seem like they’re a good thing.

Is there anyone around here that can speak to how these changes will make the 2010 season significantly better for their team or region? I’m sure many, if not all, of the teams that are going to shell out the extra $2000 required for all of these omitted parts would HAPPILY pay an extra $1000 for registration and give the remaining $1000 to a team in need.

Some of this makes me wonder what Eric’s been up to, because it hints at what is different in the 2010 electronics.

I’m not complaining, but I find it odd that lacking a new cRIO, veteran’s still receive (1) Analog Bumper. I assume that means the design has been changed?

Obviously, we’re receiving other critical parts of the electrical system (Power Distribution Panel - LEDs added back on maybe?), and the Digital Sidecar (what’s new here?).