Best Teams Not To Qualify For Champs 2022

I turned 24 a week ago, it’s been nothing but back pain, hearing loss, and softening of the brain since then.

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Are you sure you don’t mean 25?

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Someone mentioned us once, and although we aren’t the best and made a lot of mistakes which caused us to not qualify at dcmp, I’m having a lot of fun spectating instead of competing at champs. Hopefully next year learn from this season and come with something reliable which we can show off at champs.

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As someone who has been stuck in the regionals format, I’d advocate for getting rid of it. The Greater Pittsburgh Regional had 2 Michigan teams win and qualify for worlds. This happens a lot and it is kinda frustrating.

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Technically 27 is HOF and was already registered for Houston. I can see where you are coming from though with districts crossing boarders.

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Thanks for the run-down on your team’s logic for heading to a regional. As discussed in the above thread and from many other IN teams I can imagine my old team is considering heading back to regionals too. I’m glad I found this thread as it was exactly what I was looking for, I’ve been out of the loop with FRC for the last ~4 years (college plus pandemic) and this was the first year I actually went to see my old team compete again. When I found out at DCMP that no teams were heading to champs on district points I was shocked. I did some googling and found the following blog post and comments from FRC director Frank Merrick (I’m pretty sure someone else already linked this, I’m late to the party): Priority Waitlist Slot Releases | FIRST

and a lot of chief delphi discussion on the same thread here: [FRC Blog] Priority Waitlist Slot Releases - #19 by ForeShadow00

Frank’s Comment on that post looks like a reply to @IndySam who left a similar comment on the aforementioned chief delphi thread. His reply was what interested me:

His comment was very helpful for me, especially finding out that championship had ~150 less slots than my time in FRC as well as learning of the changes made to the regional system this year. Nevertheless, it stung to see that originally, (barring 234’s decline) IN was slated to send 0 teams to champs based on district points. I’ve always seen the point merit system as the whole purpose of the district system and hold a personal stake in that method of earning a spot as it was the way my old team made it to worlds during their only ever Einstein appearance.

Particularly his quote: “To add a slot would be to exceed their (IN) fair representation at Championship and take one away from Regional teams, who, unlike Districts, do not have guaranteed representation”

Which is fair, but also implies an over-representation for teams competing at a regional coming from a district. I.E. any team coming from a district whilst at a regional are competing to take slots from teams that have no representation by a district AND potentially taking a spot away from their home district by competing outside the scope of said district, they’re double dipping in my eyes.

Furthermore, to my knowledge there is no limitations or rules against district teams competing at regionals which furthers the issue as it makes earning champs slots “pay to win” in a way. Recognizing the registration fees are $5000 for two district events and $5000 for one regional, this representation double dipping is only available to the wealthier teams. I know FIRST does its best to stand for fairness, equity, and equality across it’s competition but district teams being allowed to compete at regionals feels like a small oversight in that regard.

It seems like a lot of the discussion has already been had about this idea on both this thread and the aforementioned one but I was curious if the community had any comments on this comment of “representation” coming from the director.

Lastly, all of these thoughts are my personal opinion and are in no way associated with the team I’m an alumni of and you and your team shouldn’t feel bad at all about snagging the regional win and making it to champs, it’s the system that needs to be potentially re-discussed not the competitors within it.

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For background, this wasn’t always the case; district teams earning regional slots used to not take away from the district allocation. It was specifically changed to be this way.

There’s also a big correlation bias. In the large, large majority of scenarios, a team that is competitive enough to win a regional is more than competitive enough to qualify via points inside their district. Since they already have a slot via the regional, their district spot simply passes to the next team in points, resulting in the same championship slot allocation if they hadn’t won the regional at all. No harm, no foul. The situation here, where 5484 won a regional but wasn’t in strong contention to qualify within the district, is exceedingly rare.

The other thing I think some people are discounting is how hard it is to win a regional. Indiana, while sustaining a large competitive mid-tier, does not really have the sort of top end talent that other regions have. Winning the INCMP is a relatively achievable goal compared to NE/ONT/MI/TX/PNW, etc. If a team from Indiana really wanted to go outside the district for a better chance of qualifying for the championship, they would need to deliberately seek out weaker regionals and hope that another strong team looking for a championship spot doesn’t become a late add.

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I think the solution is pretty simple, district teams are completely ineligible to qualify for worlds in any capacity through a regional. We already cannot win Chairman’s and EI, this would just be the next logical step. We love going to regionals for the exposure to the international FIRST community and grandeur of playing outside a high school gym, not for punching tickets to world’s.

Also, Regionals are only $3k for registration and the state Championship was $4k.

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I did not know that! I hope they change it back at some point.

I agree entirely, teams would still be able to get practice and the experience of traveling for the kids but no outer-district benefit. I know one year my team went to a different district to get practice week 1 and that was basically how it worked, none of the points or awards did anything for us.

Thanks for the correction, I was operating off of the following apparently misinterpreted info:

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Additional regionals are 3k. Registration for the season was 5k. That’s the subtle difference.

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Seems like a reasonable, simple solution… who decides?

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It’s like FIRST penalizes districts if a team goes to a regionals and wins.
Regionals have three slots for the winners. Why take away a spot from Districts?

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As frank points out, it’s about regional representation.

Those regions only have regionals so you’re taking a spot from their region.

Our region, Indiana, only gets so many spots.

Etc.

It doesn’t take into effect at all that people go out of their region for play but that’s the reasoning. It’s logical whether we agree with it or not.

The issue here is that they do take away from that region by not offering an extra wildcard.

The solution is simple. I think we mostly all agree. The issue is that FIRST doesn’t agree or FIRST doesn’t know about it.

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Oh, they know about it. :slightly_smiling_face:

Frank’s blog reply to “IndySam” indicates that HQ has the interests of both groups of teams in mind and they understand it is a delicate balance. However, I think the 2022 qualification rules did not quite balance the scales in switching from the 2-champs to 1-champs format. By preserving the ability of the minority group of district teams who attempt it to take CMP qualifying spots at regionals as before, by deleting the automatic regional wild card/not preserving a wildcard whenever a district team wins a regional, AND by adding the punitive district spot erasure penalty, HQ has ruffled the feathers of the majority - both regional and “stay at home” district teams alike.

It is clear that many regional and district teams are publicly upset. I think you all have largely done an excellent job expressing your frustrations and discussing solutions, and you’ve hit upon the best ones.

I would hope that, based on the ample evidence provided by all of you, which I encourage you to continue to provide in such a gracious manner, HQ is willing to iterate upon the 2022 CMP qualifying rules to better serve the majority.

Based on my past positive interactions with them on the topic of district regional relations, I am hopeful they may do just that, but I cannot speak for them. I have made them aware of your arguments and have supplied some of my own. I think we owe it to them to give them a bit of time and then see how they respond.

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So I’ve always wondered what would happen if 9 teams went and qualified from Indiana at a regional? if only 8 teams are sent from Indiana what would happen to the 9th team. Also, would no one from the State Championship qualify?

That’s been alot of conversation I’ve heard lately.

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No worries, I was surprised as well when I found that out this year. Just find it interesting that it’s cheaper to attend a regional than our own state championship. So if ticket punching is what I want to do, I could argue a team might be better off skipping state champs in favor of a regional if for nothing more than a financial decision. This only applies if you know you won’t qualify for Chairman’s or EI.

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I’d also say that like @Knufire said. I’d you’re good enough to win a regional, you’re likely good enough to go off points, during a normal year.

The big difference would be if you had huge issues at your first 2 events that caused you low points. Maybe youd be on the low end.

I will say, we were pretty competitive in the early weeks of comp, but with no bag day and never being in the shop to iterate kind of left us in the dust towards the end of the season. So many teams got sooooooooooo much better in the weeks leading up to State. We kind of got left behind.

We usually do great in the first 3 weeks when everyone is trying to get a handle on the game and strategy. All of our banners throughout our career are from week 1 or 2 events. So going to week 2 regionals with a comp already under our belt was a HUGE advantage for use this year.

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