Blockading Rule Reform

[BrennanB]

For the first part, I’d wholly disagree. You’ve presented a hypothetical that doesn’t really represent what we’re seeing in the situation discussed. Robots with basic drive skills can drive forward and backward leaving their robot in a sideways position. A driver with excellent skill will still have a harder time moving around that robot, especially given the sideways positioning. If you want to avoid providing incentive to poor driving skill, you wouldn’t want to enable a blockade as seen at Chezy. Weakening the rule enables poor driving making a larger impact.

I understand your point, but where it falls through I think (and the point that people seem to be sticking on) is that it’s really not that easy to play defense, even in that choke point for the average team/below average team.* It is very difficult to get around choke points for any driver*, but the difference is for a weak driver against some match ups it will be impossible, while some drivers can do it significantly easier. Blockading to me is executing a strategy which leaves the opposing alliance zero counter play, no way of still possibly winning. This is why this point was brought up. What may be impossible for one driver is just hard for another.

Hundreds of third picks have been “taught” how to play defense, and do so largely ineffectively. I think you vastly over-estimate average driver skill on defense. Most drivers are very ineffective when it comes to blocking top tier robots (even in choke points), and you can find tons of evidence from any year that will back that up, especially 2013 and 2018 since they have similar choke points. You really don’t have to look far to see defense that is not effective. The point that part is trying to make is that there is a measurable skill gap in drivers, and that generally weak defense is not effective vs competent drivers. Therefore if you have weak defender against a weak defended robot, you are more likely to get a call in this situation which benefits the weak driver on the offense robot.

For the last part, I’m not sure how it makes sense. If you’re assigning a red card for the alliance, there are exactly zero point values that have any actual value. Winning by 1 or 1000 results in the same win. Why assign a foul of any kind? It doesn’t change anything. I’d agree with the red card as it closes a loophole many teams have considered using. But, I don’t see the point in adding insult to injury with a foul beyond that.

Qualification matches was the main reasoning behind that. Perhaps that’s not required however, and that’s a good discussion to have.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but here’s one. Blue robot traps red inside the zone for over 20s. Red gave up and went around or it could have gone on all day.

Thanks for the example. There are some of these that are shown that you can find, but not one where you just sit and literally do nothing and make it impossible to get by (which is what JohnSchneider was arguing) so my apologies. I am looking for an example where a robot sits in that lane, doesn’t move at all, and makes it impossible to get by. (tipped over robots in the lane don’t count.)

[philso]

I would argue that the defending robot made a mistake by moving. They could not be pushed. If they had just sat in the middle of the lane it would have been impossible for the offensive robot to get through. You cannot “out skill” an immovable object giving you no possible room to get through.

That is the sort of mistake one would expect a skill level 1 or 2 driver would make. The scenario you pose would require both skill level 1 or 2 robots to be well coordinated, which is consistent with drivers at a higher skill level.

It is possible to construct a blue robot such that it cannot be turned in that situation. In fact it’s quite easy to do, look up 1817.

1817 has ranked at #1 and #3 at events in 2014 and has often ranked in the top 10 in recent years. That is not consistent with a team at skill level 1 or 2.

[JeffB]

I understand your point, but where it falls through I think (and the point that people seem to be sticking on) is that it’s really not that easy to play defense, even in that choke point for the average team/below average team.* It is very difficult to get around choke points for any driver*, but the difference is for a weak driver against some match ups it will be impossible, while some drivers can do it significantly easier. Blockading to me is executing a strategy which leaves the opposing alliance zero counter play, no way of still possibly winning. This is why this point was brought up. What may be impossible for one driver is just hard for another.

Hundreds of third picks have been “taught” how to play defense, and do so largely ineffectively. I think you vastly over-estimate average driver skill on defense.
The point that part is trying to make is that there is a measurable skill gap in drivers, and that generally weak defense is not effective vs competent drivers. Therefore if you have weak defender against a weak defended robot, you are more likely to get a call in this situation which benefits the weak driver on the offense robot.

I’m not suggesting defense is easy. I’m suggesting it’s easier than your example suggested. Your example hinges on a need for a weak driver playing defense against a strong driver trying to get around that defense. In those cases, I see your point. In every other scenario, a robot blocking a choke point provides a much greater hindrance than the ~5 seconds you suggest. The rule shouldn’t look only at the best case scenario for the offense robot, for lack of a better term. It should consider the majority of cases. Let’s not cherry pick examples and instead look at the overall intent. The goal is to prevent two robots from playing defense in a way that prevents teams from playing the game. Unless you’re suggesting 3310’s driver is a weak driver, you’d have to admit the defense in the end game of finals 3 was two robots working together with choke points to keep 3310 from playing the game. As that’s the event that brought up this whole discussion, it’s important to note that context.

Qualification matches was the main reasoning behind that. Perhaps that’s not required however, and that’s a good discussion to have.

Are you concerned about games where points scored is the ranking metric rather than RP? FRC seems pretty dedicated to RP as of late. The 2RP are far more value than the ~2 pts/match their average would be affected for tiebreaking would be.

[jvriezen]

Another consideration:

Assume in Power Up two red robots want to contain a blue bot by its exchange. If the two bots block both paths continuously, it is clearly blockading.

But what if both red bots stay ‘near’ the two choke points but only move to block the choke point when trapped bot heads to that side of the switch, and move away from the choke point when the trapped bot move to the other side of the switch.

At no single point in time are both paths blocked, but there is little to no chance to escape-- Unless another blue bot comes in to help out and play counter defense.

Is this also blockading? I suspect the fact that because another blue bot can play counter defense it would not be? But in a pinning case another bot can push the pinner out of the way, but it is still pinning.

[wgorgen]

Figured reviewing the blockading rule could be an interesting topic given the recent discussion relating to Chezy Champs.

I think it’s important to look at a few different things when looking at this rule.

• What is the intent of the rule?

• Should that kind of play be prevented? Should that be adjusted?

• How should teams be sufficiently deterred from doing the illegal action?

• How clear and precise can the language be to determine if a team is breaking the rules?

Here is the most recent version of the rule from the 2018 manual.

G12. Don’t collude with your partners to shut down major parts of game play. Two or more
ROBOTS may not isolate or close off any major component of MATCH play, e.g. blocking the
EXCHANGE, blocking both PORTALS simultaneously, shutting down all access to POWER
CUBES, quarantining all opponents to a small area of the FIELD, etc.
**Violation: YELLOW CARD for the ALLIANCE.**

Intent of the rule

2017 & 2018 are the most clear to me, as they explicitly give intent in the rules, of which, all examples are ones of completely shutting down a facet of game play to an alliance. (block all three opponent LIFTS, shut down all access to GAME PIECES, quarantine all opponents to a small area of the FIELD, blocking the EXCHANGE, blocking both PORTALS simultaneously).

To me after reviewing the intent of these rules, it’s pretty clear that the intent of these rules is to prevent an entire alliance from scoring points from one or more aspects of the game. Not a single robot from being able to score in the game.

I have become convinced that blockading means that two (or more) robots on one alliance prevent all three robots on the other alliance from having access to a major part of the game. Two robots blocking one opposing robot is not blockading.

Here is my reasoning from the examples given in the rule:

The first two examples they give in the rule of blocking both portals simultaneously or blocking ALL access to power cubes would mean that all three opposing robots would be prevented from having access to those power cubes.

The final example they give in the rule is quarantining all opponents to a small area of the field. The rule specifically says all opponents (not just one). Again, this would prevent all three robots from accessing the scoring opportunities on the rest of the field. I believe they inserted the words “all opponents” into that third example for a reason, which was to emphasize that blockading meant preventing the entire opposing alliance from scoring. It appears that the OP agrees with me on this point. I do not believe that two robots ganging up on *one robot *to block them off or quarantine them to a small area of the field is blockading per the way that the rule is written.

Given this interpretation, I cannot see how what happened in CC F3 was blockading. So, clearly, the refs considered that blockading could be applied if only one robot was blocked access.

I have read the 3 major threads on this topic since the CC call, and I have not seen any real discussion on this interpretation. Even with the OP pointing it out, this thread has focused on other (very engaging and important) aspects of this rule, but there has not been any discussion on this point.

In the interest of keeping an open mind and learning something, I would like to hear an argument as to why, given the wording of G12, we think that this rule could apply in a situation where only one robot was blocked off by two opposing robots as ruled by the refs in CC F3.

In addition, if it is the general consensus that this rule does apply to blocking off a single robot from scoring power cubes, would this also apply if 2 robots quarantined a single robot to prevent them from getting to the scale for the end game climb?

Bonus round: If my interpretation is correct (that you have to prevent all 3 robots from scoring in some element of the game play for it to be considered blockading), what would the ruling be in one robot (and only one robot) on the alliance had ramps to lift the other two robots for the end game, and that one robot was quarantined behind the switch by two opposing alliance robots and prevented from getting to the scale? Would that be considered to have prevented the entire alliance from achieving the end game climb scoring element? Would that, then, be considered blockading?

[EricH]

…long post…

I would disagree that they were blocking one robot. Sure, they were “only” blocking one robot from getting away from the Portals. HOWEVER… That robot has a Power Cube (can’t pick up another without penalty), AND the other two robots would have presumably been blocked from getting IN to the Portals. Portals are useless now. Also, blocking an alliance from the End Game bonuses… could call that one though it’s tougher

Would you be more comfortable had that been called as a Pin? I know people who would make the argument that that was a Pin, for long enough to draw a yellow card even.

[Whatever]

Bonus round: If my interpretation is correct (that you have to prevent all 3 robots from scoring in some element of the game play for it to be considered blockading), what would the ruling be in one robot (and only one robot) on the alliance had ramps to lift the other two robots for the end game, and that one robot was quarantined behind the switch by two opposing alliance robots and prevented from getting to the scale? Would that be considered to have prevented the entire alliance from achieving the end game climb scoring element? Would that, then, be considered blockading?

I have to agree with you that G12 is meant to apply to blocking all three robots. The interpretation that as long as one robot from an alliance has access to a game component that component is not isolated or closed off is consistent with the wording of the rule and all the examples given over the past 2 years since the wording was changed.

I am not sure why the make up of alliance is something the referees should consider. In your example the other two robots are still free to park so the alliance can do the end game. They just can’t do it anywhere near as well as they want to.

The issue I still see is major component of match play is not defined. I would use this list for Power Up: cubes, Portals, near switch, far switch, scale, exchange, vault, and platform.

Someone could argue the robots are major match components. I feel by definition the robots are playing the game made of components so the robots can’t be components themselves.

Someone could also argue that paths or actions in the game are major match components. Such as getting cubes from portal and delivering to scale. I would argue those are major match mechanisms. Mechanism and Component are defined in the glossary in terms of robot parts but roughly a mechanism is defined as an assembly of components. The match components are the portal, cube, and scale - the match mechanism is getting a cube from portal and placing it on the scale.

[BrennanB]

I’m not suggesting defense is easy. I’m suggesting it’s easier than your example suggested. Your example hinges on a need for a weak driver playing defense against a strong driver trying to get around that defense. In those cases, I see your point. In every other scenario, a robot blocking a choke point provides a much greater hindrance than the ~5 seconds you suggest. The rule shouldn’t look only at the best case scenario for the offense robot, for lack of a better term. It should consider the majority of cases. Let’s not cherry pick examples and instead look at the overall intent. The goal is to prevent two robots from playing defense in a way that prevents teams from playing the game. Unless you’re suggesting 3310’s driver is a weak driver, you’d have to admit the defense in the end game of finals 3 was two robots working together with choke points to keep 3310 from playing the game. As that’s the event that brought up this whole discussion, it’s important to note that context.

The main illustration that point was attempting to make is that if you call blockading on 2v1’s, there is an inherent unavoidable downside if you have a good driver, and that if you are weak driver, you will get those calls all the time. Even if it’s something like a pin count, the opponent is forced to get out of the way. The example was not meant to represent the majority of cases when defending. I would argue however in the majority of the cases, the offensive robot does make it through in less than 20s.

Are you concerned about games where points scored is the ranking metric rather than RP? FRC seems pretty dedicated to RP as of late. The 2RP are far more value than the ~2 pts/match their average would be affected for tiebreaking would be.

This is fair. I can see how the penalty probably ins’t required.

snip

I agree with your interpretation. I believe what others are trying to argue is that it should be called as a blockade anyways, even though in both of our interpretations, it should not (under the current rules). The debate has shifted more towards what the ideal purpose of the rule should be.

I would disagree that they were blocking one robot. Sure, they were “only” blocking one robot from getting away from the Portals. HOWEVER… That robot has a Power Cube (can’t pick up another without penalty), AND the other two robots would have presumably been blocked from getting IN to the Portals. Portals are useless now. Also, blocking an alliance from the End Game bonuses… could call that one though it’s tougher

I would agree with you perhaps if the other two robot were to try to access the portals. You shouldn’t be penalized for blocking something that your opponent isn’t using.

Would you be more comfortable had that been called as a Pin? I know people who would make the argument that that was a Pin, for long enough to draw a yellow card even.

Agh pin rules since 2016 are also on my list of “need a rewording”

The issue I still see is major component of match play is not defined. I would use this list for Power Up: cubes, Portals, near switch, far switch, scale, exchange, vault, and platform.

This also seems like a good idea. Defining these terms can clarify some of the issues with this rule.

[Matt_G]

I wanted to stay out of this thread because it’s kind of a disaster, but I really couldn’t resist sharing this idea I just came up with:

It would be cool if the GDC were to design a game where all of these issues being discussed were eliminated. I think it would have potential to be one of the best FRC games of all time, and probably be discussed favorably for years afterwards, even after every kid who actually played have left the program.

No blockading, no preventing teams from scoring, every team gets to show off how they solved the engineering challenge without being stopped in a potentially non-GP way.

Maybe they could make a game where each alliance had separate and protected scoring and pick-up zones, so that every team would have an equal opportunity for success.

The game could be balanced so that a 10-1-1 skilled alliance would have the same average score as a 4-4-4 alliance.

This would allow for some really cool game objectives that aren’t traditionally possible due to the prevalence of defense.

You could even put a physical barrier on the field to really keep scoring and acquiring areas for each alliance separate.

The blue alliance wouldn’t be able to cross into the red alliance’s area’s and vice-versa. A clever GDC might even be able to configure these barriers so that blockading access to the zones wasn’t possible, avoiding that issue entirely. With such a game there would be no opportunity for ref’s to make split second judgement calls that potentially decide the winner of the match.

With truly protected zones you could have robots doing really cool things like stacking game pieces into tall towers, perhaps a few game pieces of different sizes and shapes to make the towers visually interesting. This would only be possible if the other alliance wasn’t able to knock them over.

Maybe the GDC could eliminate other contentious rules like pinning, tipping, contact in the bumpers, etc. by just making the barrier around the protected zones stretch across the field.

Then there would be no blockades, no pins, no defense, just wholesome robots scoring points the best that they can. If you want to beat your opponent, you just have to score more points than them your own way! No non-GP strategies and stuff.

They could create a blue side and a red side with a platform or step or something in the middle. Then each alliance could show off how they solved an engineering challenge like stacking differently shaped game pieces without any negative interference from the other alliance. Whichever alliance scored the most points, straight up, would win the match.

Everyone gets to play the full 2 1/2 minutes of every match. No team would be able to force another team into a corner where they can’t do anything for a whole match just because their drivers or robot design isn’t as good.

Anyway, hopefully the GDC has addressed these issues and has something like this planned for the 2019 season. I wouldn’t even mind if they RECYCLE my ideas so they can RUSH and change next year’s game to address the complaints in this thread.

[BrennanB]

Everyone gets to play the full 2 1/2 minutes of every match. No team would be able to force another team into a corner where they can’t do anything for a whole match just because their drivers or robot design isn’t as good.

Ramp robots that have no wheels/never are turned on as 3rd robots :’(

[jaunvie]

I wanted to stay out of this thread because it’s kind of a disaster, but I really couldn’t resist sharing this idea I just came up with:

It would be cool if the GDC were to design a game where all of these issues being discussed were eliminated. I think it would have potential to be one of the best FRC games of all time, and probably be discussed favorably for years afterwards, even after every kid who actually played have left the program…

Maybe they could even come up with a way to cooperate with each other during the competition to earn extra points for both alliances.

Of course you know how this works. They will probably find some way to diminish the opponents ability to earn points. I mean if they can they will. It’s war out there.

[wgorgen]

I have to agree with you that G12 is meant to apply to blocking all three robots. The interpretation that as long as one robot from an alliance has access to a game component that component is not isolated or closed off is consistent with the wording of the rule and all the examples given over the past 2 years since the wording was changed.

I am not sure why the make up of alliance is something the referees should consider. In your example the other two robots are still free to park so the alliance can do the end game. They just can’t do it anywhere near as well as they want to.

The issue I still see is major component of match play is not defined. I would use this list for Power Up: cubes, Portals, near switch, far switch, scale, exchange, vault, and platform.

Someone could argue the robots are major match components. I feel by definition the robots are playing the game made of components so the robots can’t be components themselves.

Someone could also argue that paths or actions in the game are major match components. Such as getting cubes from portal and delivering to scale. I would argue those are major match mechanisms. Mechanism and Component are defined in the glossary in terms of robot parts but roughly a mechanism is defined as an assembly of components. The match components are the portal, cube, and scale - the match mechanism is getting a cube from portal and placing it on the scale.

Is the “face the boss” ranking point a major component of match play?

Since the face the boss ranking point is officially defined as all 3 robots completing a hang, or two robots completing the climb and the alliance playing the levitate power up, then blocking one robot might be considered to be closing off that component of match play (regardless of whether that robot is the one that is capable of lifting the other 2).

I noticed several matches this year where there was one robot on an alliance that was capable of lifting at least one other robot so that the alliance could earn that 4th ranking point (when you include the levitate power up) and the opposing alliance intentionally played defense against that robot during the final portion of the match to deny that robot the ability to get to their own platform to complete the hang. None of those instances resulted in a blockading penalty. I would have to go back and review the match videos to see how many of the opposing robots were involved in the defense. But usually, it was when that one robot got caught down at the opposing end of the field and all of the opposing alliance members would be down at that end anyway to complete their own end game tasks. So it would be difficult to say whether they were actually blocking or not.

I honestly don’t believe that this situation is blockading. But it seems more likely to meet the criteria in the rule than the blockading call that was made at CC F3…

[Tired_Scout]

…Everyone gets to play the full 2 1/2 minutes of every match. No team would be able to force another team into a corner where they can’t do anything for a whole match just because their drivers or robot design isn’t as good.

Anyway, hopefully the GDC has addressed these issues and has something like this planned for the 2019 season. I wouldn’t even mind if they RECYCLE my ideas so they can RUSH and change next year’s game to address the complaints in this thread.

Recycle Rush jokes aside, I think that this post (and this thread as a whole) details exactly what I loved about Stronghold- it presented an opportunity to play defense, but there were clear (and reasonable) limits to how it could be executed, and there were distinct ways of scoring that allowed robots of varying technical capabilities and driver skill to have a strategic purpose at practically any point in the game.
You can shoot boulders? Cool, but be sure to watch out for your opponents trying to snipe them away from you.
You can cross obstacles? Cool, but be careful not to get stuck, and be ready if your alliance partners need help.
You can play defense? Cool, but make sure to follow the rules, and don’t get yourself trapped on the other side of the field when it’s time for the endgame.
There was enough contact between opponents that it felt exciting to watch, but it never seemed like there were any ways to blatantly abuse poorly designed elements of the game to make it actively unfun for any team. Great robots were able to demonstrate their ability without getting completely sat on by defense, but they still had to work around it in a way that posed a legitimate challenge.
I don’t think anyone is arguing for absolutely zero defense- it just needs to be clear what is and isn’t allowed as a defensive strategy.

[EricH]

Is the “face the boss” ranking point a major component of match play?

Answer: It depends. For the CC incident, no. There are no ranking points in Finals. For quals, on the other hand, it could be. How much of a major component may depend on the teams on the field, but I would say, personally, that completely cutting access to a ranking point should be a violation regardless of the teams on the field. (That the alliance doesn’t get it isn’t the issue, in my mind–it’s that they get denied the opportunity to try.)

[jaunvie]

Is the “face the boss” ranking point a major component of match play?

Since the face the boss ranking point is officially defined as all 3 robots completing a hang, or two robots completing the climb and the alliance playing the levitate power up, then blocking one robot might be considered to be closing off that component of match play (regardless of whether that robot is the one that is capable of lifting the other 2).

Emphasis mine.

I think that totally negates the argument that blocking only one robot prohibits the alliance from achieving the RP. It’s not stopping them from getting the levitate. It doesn’t stop the other two robots from making a climb. The rule doesn’t take into account if they can or not, and it shouldn’t.

Making a robot that can climb\lift others\or some other form of game-play that enhances your alliance is part of building a strategy that not every team does, or can do. I think the word access is the key here, and restricting access can not be defined differently according to which robots are on the field.

Therefore I think because the rules specifically include a way to access the ranking point with only two robots, as long as two robots are free to play you have not shut down any of the game-play.

[Whatever]

Is the “face the boss” ranking point a major component of match play?

I would say no. I think of components of match play to be the physical features of the field rather than a scoring goal - basically section 3 of the manual. Major ones are a subsection of that.

Two robots putting cubes on the scale are trying to close off scale ownership from the opposition. Obviously that can’t be a G12 violation.

[wgorgen]

[quote=wgorgen;1786085]Is the “face the boss” ranking point a major component of match play?

I would say no. I think of components of match play to be the physical features of the field rather than a scoring goal - basically section 3 of the manual. Major ones are a subsection of that.
[/quote]

OK, well then is the rung a major component of match play (specifically during the end game)?

If only one robot on the alliance can grab the rung and climb, but the other two robots (or at least one, if the levitate power up is played) can transitively climb on that one robot, then does blocking that one robot that can climb close off this major component of match play for all the robots on the alliance? Therefore, if two robots are engaged in blocking that one robot, does that constitute blockading?

Let me just say, that up until a week ago, I would have said no to this question. But with our attention laser focused on Blockading as a rule, I am beginning to think that this might, in fact, rise to the level of blockading if you are denying the entire the alliance the opportunity to participate in a major component of match play.

[jaunvie]

OK, well then is the rung a major component of match play (specifically during the end game)?

If only one robot on the alliance can grab the rung and climb, but the other two robots (or at least one, if the levitate power up is played) can transitively climb on that one robot, then does blocking that one robot that can climb close off this major component of match play for all the robots on the alliance? Therefore, if two robots are engaged in blocking that one robot, does that constitute blockading?

Let me just say, that up until a week ago, I would have said no to this question. But with our attention laser focused on Blockading as a rule, I am beginning to think that this might, in fact, rise to the level of blockading if you are denying the entire the alliance the opportunity to participate in a major component of match play.

I agree that it gets more of a grey area the more you think about it, but I would say YES the Rung is a major component of game-play. So if you are blocking THE RUNG from at least two of the robots getting to it, yes…that’s blockading.

However, the robot hanging from the rung, does not itself transitively become a part of the Rung. Therefor blocking that robot from climbing still leaves 2 robots to use the Rung. Again, even if they do not themselves have the ability to do so.

[Whatever]

OK, well then is the rung a major component of match play (specifically during the end game)?

If only one robot on the alliance can grab the rung and climb, but the other two robots (or at least one, if the levitate power up is played) can transitively climb on that one robot, then does blocking that one robot that can climb close off this major component of match play for all the robots on the alliance? Therefore, if two robots are engaged in blocking that one robot, does that constitute blockading?

Let me just say, that up until a week ago, I would have said no to this question. But with our attention laser focused on Blockading as a rule, I am beginning to think that this might, in fact, rise to the level of blockading if you are denying the entire the alliance the opportunity to participate in a major component of match play.

I wouldn’t argue against the rung being a major component of match play.

I think the generic question is if a component requires multiple robots to be used does an alliance need multiple robots to have access for the component to not be isolated or cut off?

If the only way to use a component is with multiple robots I think that is a yes.

A component that has differentiated scoring between use by one robot and use by multiple robots is a gray area. My natural tendency is to lean towards less calls, so I would say the alliance has access to the component if one robot has access and the component can be used by one robot even if there are tiered rewards for use with multiple robots. I can definitely see an argument the other way though.

[Dr_Poptart]

Since as you say there isn’t much to pulling off successful defense, it should be relatively easy to find a good match showcasing this.

I’ve shown you plenty of evidence showing that you can get through that defense, can you show me one where the defender prevented the robot from scoring for a very long period of the match? 30s+?

I would like to give an example of Quals Match 29 at the El Paso Regional where 1817 kept 624 from scoring a single cube for 50+ seconds. Admittedly the final score of the match was decided by fouls and it should have ended in a blue victory. However, red’s scale ownership was more than double the time of blue’s because of successful defense being played.

Quals 29 - 2018 El Paso Regional