Blue nitrile tread field damage

In response to to the field damage at the glacier peak event, FIRST WA send an email to all teams warning them to stop damaging the carpet. Due to the high amount of swerve drives running blue nitrile tread, the field got really torn up. It appears that this tread will be taken with extra scrutiny at future events.

Is anybody familiar with any tread that will not risk damaging the field in this way (and getting disabled) while also not being super traction limited or encountering the carpet encoder slip issue?

Additionally, how much of an effect does hardboard below the carpet have on the carpet’s properties?

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All the black tape was where the field got damaged.

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If you think blue tread is bad, wait until you see what black tread does…

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It was bad enough for there to be an email sent out to all teams to stop damaging the field and several inspectors send out to all teams to investigate tread to find out who was causing field damage.

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brushless motors, baby

I wonder what happens if wedgetop catches on as the meta again?

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We burned a hole through our own carpet while testing the swerve as well. That blue stuff is no joke.

Try the wedgetop treads from WCP: Wheel Tread – WestCoast Products, they seem to not do as much damage.

Good matches at Glacier Peak btw. Honored to play against yall in the semis (:

Does not as much damage mean less damage or no possibility of damage?

lol
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The email, for those interested:

Hey teams,

A change is being made to the flooring under the FRC field.

As you know, we had our first Rapid React events last weekend at Clackamas and Glacier Peak. This turned out to be a great game. It is exciting to play, exciting to watch, and a great challenge.

We also gained some experience running the event. At both events, we saw a remarkable increase in the power and speed of our robots. Many teams have switched to Falcon motors. A lot of teams have also switched to Swerve drive modules with placation tread material. That combination had an unfortunate side effect in that we had a lot of “burn through” incidents by a large number of teams. That means that robots broke friction with the field and were spinning their wheels. (My own team 4089 had this happen). The net result was the robots dug through the carpet, and in a couple of cases also burned through the protective tarps on the floor. It happens VERY quickly. A Falcon driven placation wheel can go through the carpet in less than a second. Spinning your wheels is bad. This happened a lot at the hub and on the driver station walls.

We call your attention to rule R201 in the manual:

  • No digging into carpet. Traction devices must not have surface features that could damage the ARENA (e.g. metal, sandpaper, hard plastic studs, cleats, hook-loop fasteners or similar attachments). Traction devices include all parts of the ROBOT that are designed to transmit any propulsive and/or braking forces between the ROBOT and FIELD carpet.”

Please keep an eye on your treads. Keep an eye out for rivets or screw fasteners becoming exposed due to wear on your treads. We also encourage you to torque limit your drive bases, especially if you are using high friction placation wheels with Falcon motors.

The net resulting damage was minimal this week, so we lucked out. We (FIRSTWA) are responsible for damages to school gym floors. This is a shockingly expensive repair to pay for (think > $30,000). We can’t afford to do that!

Our plan for the remaining events, including DCMP, is to run with a .125in layer of hardboard under the carpet to hopefully catch the case where a robot inadvertently digs through the carpet.

Starting this weekend with Wilsonville, all events on basketball courts should expect to be playing on a hardboard underlayment. SunDome and Oregon State Fairgrounds are on concrete. All other venues are on basketball courts. What could this mean? The underlayment usually lays pretty flat, but not 100% always across the field. We have used this technique in the past . There may be places where the floor has what appears to be some give to it. That is the underlayment not being 100% flat. The weight of your robot will push the hardboard to the floor and you will get a solid connection to the floor. The carpet is the same thickness as it has always been. We will do our best to keep the floor as flat as possible. Experience tells us there will be some variation. Please be understanding.

Be forewarned, spinning your wheels and burning the carpet will get your robot E-Stopped during a match. Drivers need to be on the lookout for spinning wheels. Burn through seemed to happen most often while pushing on the hub or the walls of the arena. It was also seen once with two robots pushing on each other. The hardboard will help with the floor, but your robot can even burn through the hardboard. Please don’t spin your wheels on the carpet! You will get disabled.

We wanted to let you know about this change and why we are implementing it.

Please direct questions to me about this.

See you on the carpet!

Kevin Ross
PNW District Chair

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The wedgetop has a higher COF, but wears faster. So, potentially more damage for some period of time until the tread degrades, and less thereafter (unless/until the tread is swapped out).

There is always possibility of damage, but the grip pattern is more geared towards hard surfaces and therefore toned down a lot compared to the blue roughtop treads.

I think the solution to this problem is just careful driving though since the roughtop treads supposedly offer you the most durability and traction on carpet.

Yes, we saw a little of this at Calvin University. Good thing Michigan events have required hardboard under the field carpet for several years now.

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Careful driving doesn’t help when another bot can ram into you and cause you to damage the field. This happened in a match where we were playing def on 4911 and when trying to push them sideways resulted in lots of damage to the field but yet the event crew blamed 4911 and not us for the damage.

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Something else that we have done in the past is modifying our swerve units to fit a wheelchair tire:

This worked pretty well for us in 2020 and didnt cause any field damage.

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… Y’all weren’t running hardboard underlayment? That’s been
the standard in California events for years, anywhere we have robots (or carts).

We burned through the carpet under the gear slots in 2017 for sure, and have always had some damage in high traffic areas, though not so bad as in some of those photos upthread…

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:grimacing:

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FACT?

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The only shocking things about this situation are 1) the blame for this phenomenon isn’t being shared by all the other drive trains that are increasingly overpowered, and 2) that someone somewhere hasn’t been putting Masonite under their fields

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Mikal was quoting Kevin Ross, the PNW District Chair. I don’t know if the time required to burn through carpet with blue nitrile is one second, but it does seem reasonable. Recent generation swerve modules are geared for about 180 inch per second (as are many other drive trains, see Joel’s comment above), so in one second they will rub a 1.5" section of carpet 120 times while the robot mass pushes down with 1/4 of robot weight, or about 35 pounds. I think that could get through, as it apparently did in this picture.
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I’ll bet you cash (and a lot of it) that an out of the box KOP drivetrain with CIMs can do the exact same damage.

Aside from that, I’m not dissecting frogs and that’s a FACT.

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Not taking that bet because I am pretty sure you’re right. And dissecting frogs is just gross.

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