Bounce scoring cargo before contact with floor

After reading and re-reading G403 and G405 I believe that it may actually be possible to score game pieces without violating the G405 rule. Would a mechanism like this designed to bounce balls being returned be legal? Team 118 Robonauts 2014 - YouTube
Is this year basically hungry hungry hippo?

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I wonder… with the way 403 is worded and the definition of MOMENTARY in the glossary - if you catch and re-fire it within 3 seconds you’re ok?

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I don’t think you could make a robot that is capable of bouncing the cargo back consistently. You could catch the cargo but that would be illegal. It would also be difficult because cargo could be returned to the field in 8 different directions (left or right from the four UPPER EXITS). If it is simply using some mechanism to bounce them up, you also need to make sure you aren’t scoring the opposing alliance’s cargo.

I also think if you managed to do it, you wouldn’t be able to convince a head referee that it is legal.

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I think you have some research to do. Try 51, 125, and to a lesser extent 469 in 2010.

As you pointed out, though, the harder part is figuring out where the cargo will drop and getting there in time and pointed correctly–and not scoring your opponent’s cargo.

I’ll have to dig more into the rule to see how crazy this is.

Don’t underestimate linear punch mechanisms. I do think a modified version of the robot I linked could work to some degree of efectiveness. If they were able to sit in between two of the 8 positions they would be within range of about 25% of returned balls. Even at 75% accuracy This could be a considerable number considering that your could still have the 2 balls in additional as this is not control just scoring.

Speaking of 2010, late in that season teams started adding deflectors or trampolines on their robot to just bounce ball from the return into the close zone. I wouldn’t be shocked to see teams cheesecake similar mechanisms to help keep all the cargos on their side of the field.

I may or may not have been a part of that and it is what made me research this.

meh, it will be a lot less than that. A lot of teams are looking at low goal (which is where it looks like you’ll be scoring as well).

Me thinks you’ll be a lot faster as a chaser rather than waiting for 1 in 4 of the high shots to fall your way.
It is a cool idea

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To clarify, it is definitely possible to make a positive feedback loops. I’ve seen the 469 2010 (and was actually showing my team it when we talked about these rules). And linear punches could definitely do it.

The problem I see is the robot having to detect the ball and activate the punch before it actually hits the launch pad so that the ball is only in contact with the punch for an instant. Possible with break beam sensors but I think unfeasible.

My other concern is consistency. Balls will be coming in at least two different directions to the punch. Maybe you could have some curved surface to direct the balls in the correct direction, but I think that would be inconsistent as well.

There’s a reason I called out 51 and 125 first. They were much more bounce shotters by comparison.

Now, on to the rule teardown I promised.

G405 Don’t catch CARGO. A ROBOT may not REPEATEDLY gain greater-than-MOMENTARY CONTROL of CARGO released by an UPPER EXIT until and unless that CARGO contacts anything else besides that ROBOT or CARGO controlled by that ROBOT.

Violation: FOUL per CARGO.

It is important to design your ROBOT to mitigate the chance your ROBOT could inadvertently or unintentionally catch CARGO as it leaves an UPPER EXIT.

After applying the definitions for Repeated and Momentary, we get the following reading…

G405 Don’t catch CARGO. A ROBOT may not gain CONTROL of CARGO released by an UPPER EXIT for more than 3 seconds, until and unless that CARGO contacts anything else besides that ROBOT or CARGO controlled by that ROBOT, more than once in a match.

Violation: FOUL per CARGO.

It is important to design your ROBOT to mitigate the chance your ROBOT could inadvertently or unintentionally catch CARGO as it leaves an UPPER EXIT.

OK. So what’s control? There’s no specific Glossary definition (though there SHOULD BE, HQ if you’re seeing this, include it in TU#1 please). But, G403 sets that up.

G403 […]

A ROBOT is in CONTROL of CARGO if:
A. the CARGO is fully supported by the ROBOT,
B. the CARGO travels across the FIELD such that when the ROBOT changes direction, the CARGO travels with the ROBOT,
C. the ROBOT is holding CARGO against a FIELD element in attempt to guard or shield it, or
D. the ROBOT is preventing a CARGO from leaving a LOWER EXIT.

I find no evidence that a simple bounce is CONTROL in that definition, unless the Cargo is fully supported by the robot for >3s.

Therefore, if you can aim it reliably… It’s a score, no penalty. Good luck on the aim, though. And good luck being under your team’s ball when it drops.

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The other obvious problem with this idea is that, given the geometry of the returns, it’s likely that you won’t get any kind of consistent drop of the cargo. As I see it, the cargo rolls down the ramp of the return and then hits the stop at the bottom, bounces off this, and drops over the angled edge on one side or the other (and that’s random.) I highly doubt you’ll be able to be consistently in the spot where you’d need to be to bounce the cargo back without catching it for more than three seconds.

I wonder how many teams are going to scout the hub.

I was thinking about this as well. Would be tougher for the high but they might determine some biases in the way balls output that could affect their strategy. Of course, any deductions would reset after that feeding wheel is replaced…

Note that Team Update #2 has changed G405 to explicitly forbid scoring CARGO in this capacity rather than just exerting greater-than-MOMENTARY CONTROL. It was a cool loophole while it lasted, though. Can’t do it solo anymore, at least:

G405 Don’t catch CARGO. A ROBOT may not REPEATEDLY score or gain greater-than-MOMENTARY CONTROL of CARGO released by an UPPER EXIT until and unless that CARGO contacts anything else besides that ROBOT or CARGO controlled by that ROBOT.
Violation: FOUL per CARGO.

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Tennis, anyone?

Even with the new update you can “catch” a ball and funel it down to the floor (floor intake) in less than 3 seconds.