Breakaway Discussion

I don’t care what “they” said or where “they” said it (or who “they” is specifically for that matter). Unless it is in the Manual, it is not official. The Manual explicitly states that Co-op points are seeding points, and that all seeding points go into your seeding score. Highest Co-op bonus is tracked but not displayed, and is the first tiebreaker. Note that it’s the highest one, not the sum of them.

And you’re reversed on the Co-op bonus makeup. It’s not that the bonus is based on your seeding points, it’s that the bonus is extra seeding points.

Ok im not trying to sound defiant or saying that you guys arent wrong and I am right, I am just trying to figure it out but it never says that Co-op are seeding points

No, they are adding to your seeding point total. The bonus is not using seeding points, it is using unpenalized scores. Seeding points are penalized scores.

Ok my bad guys, my Dad just came in here and described how the rules are saying that rule and I now understand it, sorry for the confusion

"9.3.4 Match Seeding Points
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a number of seeding points equal to the penalized score (the score with any assessed penalties) of the winning ALLIANCE.

All teams on the losing ALLIANCE will receive a number of seeding points equal to un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the winning ALLIANCE.

9.3.5 Coopertition™ Bonus
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a coopertition bonus: a number of seeding points equal to twice the un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the losing ALLIANCE."

If I am reading this correctly this means that the formula for the winning team A is S=P+2L

Where S is the seeding score; P is the penalized score of the winning team, and L is the un-penalized score of the losing team.

So say the Red Alliance wins over the Blue Alliance 15-0 but incurred 3 penalties.

The Red seeding score would be 15 and the Blue seeding score would be 18.

Is this correct? Am I missing something? If not I believe this to be the only downfall of this game.

This is correct.

It’s not a downfall, though. It’s like <G14> last year: making it clear that blowing out an opponent is a bad thing.

I remember last year, if you won you got two points (QS I think?), tied one point, and if you lost, nothing. Is their anything like that this year, or is it all off the seeding points?

Not that I can find in the Manual. It’s all seeding points, coopertition bonuses, and getting off the ground.

Nope, that’s all gone this year. Just seeding points. Which is kind of weird in a soccer/football theme game, as standings in soccer/football are based 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for loss. Then goal differential (goals-for minus goals-against) is usually the first tiebreaker.

I had not thought about it this way before, but the penalties and scoring rules make the “one team gets 0, the other scores all the points” a less attractive strategy for the team scoring all the points and more for the zero points team. Because the best the winning team can do in that case is equal the losing team’s seeding points. If Red scores 10 points and B gets zero, then they both get 10 points if Red had no penalties, and Red ends up with fewer points if they had penalties. This means that it is probably not in an alliance’s best interest to cooperate in a “one alliance scores all the points, the other goes for zero” strategy if they are going to be the alliance that scores.

Yep, you want the opposing alliance to score one less than you, cause that way you get nearly triple your score in seeding points.

If you want to score to the point you can get the score 30-0…do it in the Elimination matches. Otherwise, make it 16-15. thats just how it works.

OK i have a lot of long points to make about the game so this post will be kinda long
**

  1. the 0 point losing team loophole of rules 9.3.4 & 9.3.5**
    I think this is a easily a fixable situation by teams trying to play the game the right way. For example say you got the allstars vs. the brokebots and the allstars have scored 20 points with 30 secs left with and the brokebots have scored 0 points. For the allstars to boost their seeding they need to score for the brokebots. All points scored this way are worth 2 points (basicly an endgame). However some are saying like in these posts http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=79736 http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=79708 that if you don’t score and prevent your opponents from scoring for you this could be a favorable exploitation. But beyond just being against the spirit of gracious professionalism and the spirit of the game, it will hurt you more because if you follow this train of thought you give up on the chance to win which can net you more points (don’t go to the all stars team scored 12 with 5 penalties and broke bots team scored 2 argument they can be nullified with what i said before or later in this post). Also when it comes time to choose alliances no one will want choose you if you went this route and if you did get in the top eight you will be considered the “carried” team and no one will like you. Plus if to many teams to this in the early regionals, continuity of the game be d****d, i will guarantee you FIRST will change the the rules to stop this type of action. So save the excitement of the game, the spirit of the game, and the spirit of gracious professionalism.

2. Quick change bumpers will be very important due to rule R12
This is something i was surprised no one has mentioned it. In the past i have heard teams (even veteran teams) complain how it takes FOREVER to take of their bumpers. With the requirement of having red and blue bumpers for your robot and the quick match turn around teams experience at regionals, teams could find themselves taking to long to change a bumper and cant compete. Yes teams do have the option to make the covering thing but i find that a bad idea if you have the resources to make a bumper. I think that type of system could be hard to make work because of how easily it could slip off. One hit or snag by another robot and your team could suddenly face a penalty (maybe i don’t know if this breaks G30). But even if it doesn’t break a rule why risk it?. my team uses a easy to create a quick disconnect system using c channel and some pins. If you have any questions about this just PM me and ill give you some more info on it.

3. defense is bad in the qualifications but great in the elimination
This pretty much goes back to my first point but defense sucks in the qualifications because more points your opponent scores the better win or lose (rules 9.3.4 & 9.3.5.) So shut outs are something people want to avoid so overall they get more seeding points. However the defensive bots (the good ones, not the box on wheels) and defensive strategys will become kings because they can help prevent the come back

4. the game will be played with one bot from each alliance in all three sections
This one might be a more individual results may vary type situation with exceptions to the rules appearing all the time. But on average i think putting 2 bots in one section (while forsaking another section of the field completely. not traveling back and forth) gives to many advantages to the opponent or would create an cluster like in lunacy with nothing happening. i will explore the three ways you can effectively do this

  • take some one out of your opponents alliance zone
  • take some one out of the middle
  • take someone out of your alliance zone

the first choice of taking someone out of your opponents alliance zone may be the best choice if you where to do this but is still bad. Even tho i have just said defense is bad, defensive hindrance and giving balls to your team to score with are good. Every one wants to win (i hope) and the best way to win in this is to score points faster than out opponent while still allowing them to score points. Plus having someone to “return” balls back to the middle or even you own alliances side is also a plus.
The second choice of taking some one out of the middle is complete suicide. That is where the balls are enough said. If your alliance chooses to do this they are probably playing by the strategy i discussed in my first point. Then you are just hurting yourself.
Then the third choice is most likely a gray area. Maybe some teams can score from mid field but it would probably be the same as taking someone out of your opponents zone but in reverse. Now your opponent has a easier time hindering the scoring of your alliance, which is bad.
All this would result in your alliance trying to gain increased control over a section (but not complete thanks to rule G39) while giving your opponent complete control over a section of which i have described the results (hopefully accurately) above

Creator Mat:
Awesome post, my friend and I were literally just having a conversation about the topics you discussed, and its almost as if I could have written your post. I feel the same about the loophole issue, but I honestly don’t think many teams will risk taking the chance of a zero scoring game, it’s just not what FIRST is about.

Immediately I fell in love with the game and being the drive coach I think I’m going to be pretty busy this year

I’m having trouble…breaking away…from this game.
I’m getting a…kick…out of the design possibilities.
There sure are some…bumps…we have to smooth out.
Hopefully the pressure doesn’t feel too…towering…
We had a human player practice. He…tried 'nt…he failed.

Has anyone noticed that while only a HUMAN PLAYER can use the TRIDENT, coaches can handle the balls in the Alliance Station?
Do you think this is an error that will be corrected?

TEAM: Four representatives from a registered FRC team that interact with their ROBOT and their
ALLIANCE partners to play Breakaway. Positions on the TEAM include:
COACH: A student or adult mentor designated as the team coach and advisor during the MATCH
and identified as the person wearing the designated “COACH” pin or button. There is one
COACH per TEAM.
DRIVER: A pre-college student team member responsible for operating and controlling the
ROBOT. There are two DRIVERS per TEAM.
HUMAN PLAYER: A pre-college student team member responsible for properly returning BALLS
to the FIELD. There is one HUMAN PLAYER per TEAM. The HUMAN PLAYER is the only TEAM
MEMBER that may handle the TRIDENT.

<G15> BALL Handling – BALLS may be handled by any **TEAM **member when BALLS are in the
CORRAL or ALLIANCE STATION. BALLS may not be handled until they have exited from
the BALL COUNTER and are in the CORRAL. Violation: PENALTY.
<G16> BALL Return - HUMAN PLAYERS must place BALLS on the BALL RETURN using the
TRIDENT.
No other means are permitted for TEAMS to return BALLS to the FIELD.
Violation: Two PENALTIES and YELLOW CARD.

Nope. I think the coach, when not coaching, will serve as a handy trident loader.

Nothing says that you have to use the trident to move the balls in the station, just to put them on the return.

I have a question about Breakaway.

I have read the manual pretty thoroughly, but this was never specified, at least to my knowledge.

Defensively, are there any rules on how long we can block something i.e goals or tunnel?

Not that I’ve seen.