Broken promises or BROKEN ROBOTS!

FIRST General Forum
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Posted by Kyle Hughes, Coach on team #27, OSMTech Academy, Team Rush, from OSMTech Academy and DaimlerChrysler.

Posted on 3/29/99 9:11 PM MST

After long debate about posting a message, Joe Johnson asked me to let the world know what happened.

During OSMTech’s 6th qual. round, we had an injury to our robot. At 11:00, we sent the robot to the shop to be fixed. At the same time, Baxter and Beatty both had come to me to see if we would like to partner. My team felt that it was important to inform our possible allies of our injured state. They were the only ones who knew we had an injury, and the only ones who asked. Baxter couldn’t wait any longer to see if it would work, and by 12:15, they moved on without us. We felt we had only one possible choice in order to play on, and that was if Beatty was still interested. The Beatty team had a heck of a time finding me, due to the fact that I was outside on a cell-phone trying to get updates on the robot, and the rest of my coaching team was in the shop (off site). We felt that we could not go with any other team - even if asked, due to the fact that nobody knew we were injured!

I walked into the arena, and heard Delphi request team 27. I almost died. How could I say, ‘yes’, knowing that we may not have a robot at all? Our team has too much integrity to say yes to something that we couldn’t back up. We denied. I ran back outside to call again … came back in and found out we denied Motorola too. Beatty was looking around for another 2nd choice. I got paged within minutes of Beatty’s second choice. The robot was on its way back. The robot was fixed.

Stressed? Of course. Panicked? Of course. Dissappointed? yes, because now people feel we held out to help Beatty!

Our team feels terrible that people would think that we would ‘fix’ our selection. Yes, working with Beatty works! We not only have complementary machines, but we work together well as a team in communication and in strategy! It is exciting to play with Beatty! I feel like for the first time I am finally playing with the Big Guys, and unbelievably … we are winning! Our students and adults have worked very hard to get where we are, and we really can’t believe that we have made it this far. Sadly, we can’t even enjoy it. Apparently, if you do the honest thing by turning people down because your robot doesn’t work, you get labeled as, ‘holding out’ to make an allience with an ol’ pal.

I would like to thank Brian Beatty for being so patient with us and believing in us. Even though we didn’t get to play the first round, I felt very honored to have just been chosen, and had the opportunity to play.

As for the rest of you. Please before you start asking teams to be allies, check to make sure that their robots are working. It could eliminate a lot of confusion later.

And lastly … thank you Joe J. You and your team have been an inspiration to us. You are a class act, and as I have told you this before, the students on your team are lucky to have you as their engineering hero.

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Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 3/29/99 9:33 PM MST

In Reply to: Broken promises or BROKEN ROBOTS! posted by Kyle Hughes on 3/29/99 9:11 PM MST:

Even if Team 27 didn’t have a broken robot and if they did know that thier robot was fine, why shouldn’t they have the right to choice who they want to be an alliance with. As the old cliche goes’ if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’ Beatty Machines and team 27 are prefect for each other, they compliment each other in the best ways and if you don’t know that all you have to do is look at the standings in the Motorola and the Great Lakes Regional. I hope in Florida Team 27 and 71 are part of an alliance because to me they are the top dogs that everyone should be trying to knock off. Now I’m not saying that either one should throw matches but I think both of these teams understand the true meaning of FIRST and won’t throw a match to help themselves in becoming alliance partners, but if for some strange reason Beatty Hammond makes the 16th ranking and Team 27 doesn’t make it, or vice versa, I think these two teams would be stupid not to ally themselves with one another, and if this does happen and we are hopefully in the elimination rounds then I think it would be an honor to play these two teams because they represent the best of the best so far, but the question is will they be the best of the best at the end.

This is just my two cents

Mike Kulibaba Team 88 TJ²

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Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 3/30/99 3:58 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Broken promises or BROKEN ROBOTS! posted by Mike Kulibaba on 3/29/99 9:33 PM MST:

i agree, if the alliance works, there’s no reason to change a good thing (or in that case, bring in a 3rd team :-)… but i don’t think any teams should set themselves up for alliance too early… 71 and 27 have worked well together… but there will probably 100 other teams that neither of them have seen before, there’s always room for someone better to come along… everyone just needs to remember that…

and, more importantly, i agree with what you said… they may seem to be the ‘best’ right now, but they haven’t competed against everyone… alls that matters is who is best of best in the end… and right now, none of us know who that’s going to be.

best of luck to all teams…

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Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/30/99 7:23 AM MST

In Reply to: Broken promises or BROKEN ROBOTS! posted by Kyle Hughes on 3/29/99 9:11 PM MST:

: Stressed? Of course. Panicked? Of course. Dissappointed? yes, because now people feel we held out to help Beatty!

: Our team feels terrible that people would think that we would ‘fix’ our selection.

: Our students and adults have worked very hard to get where we are, and we really can’t believe that we have made it this far. Sadly, we can’t even enjoy it. Apparently, if you do the honest thing by turning people down because your robot doesn’t work, you get labeled as, ‘holding out’ to make an allience with an ol’ pal.

Even if the situation had been different and you had ‘held out’ to honor
a prior commitment, I don’t think your team, or any other, has anything
to feel bad for. It’s YOUR choice who you decide to partner with.
It doesn’t matter why or when you make the decision, as long as you’re
above-board about it (i.e., no matches are intentionally lost and no
commitments are made to other teams ‘just in case’).

Woody’s analogy of the selection process to accepting a date is quite
appropriate. If someone asks you on a date and you decline, that
doesn’t prevent you from accepting another offer for the same time.
The one thing you don’t do is accept two conflicting offers.

- Jerry
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Posted by Rich Spadaccini, Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from SWHS and IFC.

Posted on 3/30/99 8:24 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Broken promises or BROKEN ROBOTS! posted by Jerry Eckert on 3/30/99 7:23 AM MST:

Well really rejecting a team is not the biggest deal, it is just part of the game, an acceptable risk which you must make when you go on the stage. I can say from the point of a rejectee, i think that’s the right word, that it wasn’t earth shattering. You may feel bad for declining because of a broken robot, or a previuos agreement but that’s what took the place of the powerful human player which was shown last year. There is always the unexpected twist, even though this one isn’t as unexpected. Still I was on stage with the sheet of four teams because we had expected either, a)the teams would get picked or b)I might get declined by a choice. The most unnerving spot though is trying to answer the question to your alliance partner of why they were second pick, but thats minor. Really you shouldn’t have any guilt holdingover you because it was a reasonable reason, and even if it was prior, hey it happens.

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Posted by mike aubry, Engineer on team #47, Chiefs, from Pontiac Central.

Posted on 3/30/99 8:42 PM MST

In Reply to: Broken promises or BROKEN ROBOTS! posted by Kyle Hughes on 3/29/99 9:11 PM MST:

Kyle, thanks for the clarification - even though it really wasn’t necessary. Whatever a team decides to do is really up to them, not they should not have to feel that they need to defend their decision. FIRST has set up the rules to allow every team to decide for themselves whom they choose to align with, and ‘broken’ or not the decision is yours and yours alone to make! Saying all that, let me clarify something as well - because we were rookies at picking alliances and sticking to our policy of ‘NO DEALS’, We always will go with the 1st team to ask us, and don’t pre-arrange anything (Not that we could - we barely made it into the top 8 ourselves and it happened in the next to last qualifying match) We scrambled putting a select list of alliance partners together based on their capabilities and how they matched up with us, but we just plain ran out of time and never spoke to a single team as to who we would select! (Thanks - Power Train / Pontiac Northern and Berkley ‘Da Bears’) When all the dust settles - maybe you can clear up the comment you made in the stands when you found out it was us asking for the alliance - you made a funny comment - I just wonder what it meant? Anyways, I’m rambling on - so just let me end by wishing the OSM Tech team the best of luck in Florida.

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Posted by Ken Patton, Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 3/31/99 4:40 PM MST

In Reply to: 1st choice or 2nd choice? posted by mike aubry on 3/30/99 8:42 PM MST:

Hey Mike (and the rest of the Chiefs)-

Thank YOU for picking us. Even though we weren’t your first choice, I think we made a complementary team. It sounds like we were fun to watch too! I know I had a total blast.

Many people outside Pontiac may not realize the huge rivalry there is between Northern and Central. I give your team a ton of credit for ‘going with the robot’ and seeing through the rivalry. You are truly leaders and gracious professionals.

I think I speak for the whole team when I say THANKS! Our hats are off to you! :))

Ken

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Posted by Ken Patton, Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 3/31/99 4:49 PM MST

In Reply to: 1st choice or 2nd choice? posted by mike aubry on 3/30/99 8:42 PM MST:

Hey Mike (and the rest of the Chiefs)-

Thank YOU for picking us. Even though we weren’t your first choice, I think we made a complementary team. It sounds like we were fun to watch too! I know I had a total blast.

Many people outside Pontiac may not realize the huge rivalry there is between Northern and Central. I give your team a ton of credit for ‘going with the robot’ and seeing through the rivalry. You are truly leaders and gracious professionals.

I think I speak for the whole team when I say THANKS! Our hats are off to you! :))

Ken

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Posted by mike aubry, Engineer on team #47, Chiefs, from Pontiac Central.

Posted on 3/31/99 8:08 PM MST

In Reply to: #65 says thanks to YOU, Mike! posted by Ken Patton on 3/31/99 4:49 PM MST:

Ken,
I’m so very glad that the Pontiac Northern team accpted our offer! Yeah, the rivalry thing may be an issue to some - but myself (a Delphi Engineer) do not feel that their is any rivalry that shouldn’t be overlooked in this great endeavor called FIRST. Frankly, I don’t have the time or energy to get involved in that kind of thing - I would rather spend my energy in developing and improving relationships! To bad people don’t realize the damage that cross town rivalrys create - and can’t overlook such fleeting moments that don’t mean a thing when you consider the ‘big’ picture called life! Just my 2 cents worth - Hope you answer the call if we offer - I know we will if you propose an alliance!

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Posted by Reuben Hintz, Student on team #53 from Eleanor Roosevelt HS.

Posted on 3/31/99 7:30 PM MST

In Reply to: 1st choice or 2nd choice? posted by mike aubry on 3/30/99 8:42 PM MST:

Good for you Mike! Do other people out there really have a problem with a team passing up an alliance if they would rather be with another team?

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