I had a discussion with the head ref at LA. It went something like this:
The head ref told me that “bulldozing” is illegal because of a rule against “herding” but, the rules talk about “posession” in which case you are not allowed to possess more than one ring and posession is defined as the ring touching the robot at MORE than one point (Q/A forums). I asked the head ref, “if we have a ring, and use it to push another ring, where the second ring would not be touching the robot, is this considered penalty deserving multiple posesstion?”
and I got a “yes. This will be a penalty, you should not do this” Then I said “all we want to do is plow throught the rings up against the wall. Will we get a penalty?” and I got a “yes, you are moving multiple rings with intent”
Is that correct? I mean, clearly there is a difference of opinion here. I need to know how it’s being called other places and what rules apply.
This is because in the rules it states,
“Controlled “herding” of a single GAME PIECE lying on the floor is permitted as
long as no other GAME PIECE is in the POSSESSION of the ROBOT. Herding of multiple
GAME PIECES, or herding of a GAME PIECE on the floor while in POSSESSION of another
GAME PIECE is not permitted (as this would be considered POSSESSION of more than
one GAME PIECE).”
Possession is defined as the control of a tube, be it in your fingers, or if you are pushing it around the floor.
So driving through a large pile of tubes would get you a penalty?
I think this rule exists but wouldn’t be enforced very strongly. So if you want to go to the opponent’s side and knock down all the innertubes to make it harder for them to deploy thier ramps. I dont think you’ll be penalized unless you’re trying to move multiple tubes to another area all at once.
i asked the head ref at GLR what the ruling on driving along the wall to knock the tubes over was. he told me that it was legal as long as we just knock them over by driving by, but if it appears that we are attempting to control them and move them to certain spot it would be illegal. it would also be illegal if we had another tube in our possession. we used this strategy in a match and no penalty was called. this looks like another case of rules being interpreted differently based on the refs.
Here is the ‘official’ answer as found in the FIRST Q&A:
“HERDING” implies that you are attempting to direct multiple Game Pieces to a particular location. Merely driving into an area occupied by multiple Game Pieces in an attempt to clear the area and letting them randomly scatter would not be considered herding.
I have only watched webcast so far. I am a little concerned over the number of times there are tubes in the way of ramp deployment. Seems like a ramp bot/lifter would have to clear a landing zone for their ramps/lifters (love your lifters by the way, can not wait to see them in action). When clearing a space for ramps/lifters, would a team be penalized for herding? I would like to believe that when a robot clears a space in the home zone, the refs would not take a strick interpretation of the herding rule and penalize them. If a ramp bot/lifter were merely trying to clear the home zone, even if multiple tubes were being pushed into the corners or playing field or wherever. The Q & A you mention should make it legal, I hope! I have also not seen any penalties called whenI have seen robots clear the area.
BEWARE!
At NJ our driver knocked down the tubes randomly from the wall and we were penalized for herding. We had no tubes in our possession. We were leading 10 to 4 but lost on penalties for herding.
I suggest that you get a complete clarification of this rule from the head referee before trying this. Also for those referees out there if you could clarify the finer points of this particular play with the drivers and other referees, it would be helpful.
Consistency is critical for this rule, because it is such a borderline case.
Seems like the refs are still using personal interpretation regardless of the written response in Q&A
As Wayne responded -
Here is the ‘official’ answer as found in the FIRST Q&A:
“HERDING” implies that you are attempting to direct multiple Game Pieces to a particular location. Merely driving into an area occupied by multiple Game Pieces in an attempt to clear the area and letting them randomly scatter would not be considered herding.
Clearly, knocking down the tubes leaning against the wall is attempting to direct them - the particular area is the opponents home zone. Granted the exactness of location is not important to them.
My advice would be - If they want to employ this perfectly legal strategy without penalty, simply move one at a time - or incurr the penalty.
So wait corect me if im wrong, but ur safe to clean out the back row to deploy a ramp, as long as you dont hae a ringer in your gripper or anywhere on your robot.
Apparently so -
Driving into an area occupied by multiple Game Pieces in an attempt to clear the area and letting them randomly scatter would not be considered herding.
At SVR, the officials told us at the driver’s meeting that if you “herded” away from the rack, they wouldn’t call a penalty. Later before a semifinal match, I clarified with the head referee about plowing through the ringers in the opponent’s end zones. I let all the referees know that I was going to do that, and I would not be trying to herd or score. They said that this was okay, as long as I didn’t change my mind and try to score. Unfortunately, our strategy didn’t work as the end zone is just too big for the ringers to mess up the ramp deployment.
Be sure to ask your head referees about this rule.
The LA head ref said there is a penalty (as far as I understood him).
The SD head ref said that it is considered “scattering” and is legal as long as you do not have contact with two ringers (at two points on the robot) at the same time.
My team asked this question on the FIRST forum and the answer we got was that if you were not pushing the rings to a certain direction, aka you were just pushing them out of the way, then it was legal. We have since then printed that paper out.
From GDC * FIRST Q & A Forum
“HERDING” implies that you are attempting to direct multiple Game Pieces to a particular location. Merely driving into an area occupied by multiple Game Pieces in an attempt to clear the area and letting them randomly scatter would not be considered herding.
This rule specifically requires that EACH tube touch the robot in more than 1 point to be considered in possession.
As far as the Q&A answer goes. The Q&A is not an ‘official’ source (as proven by the stacking rule), and since their ruling is in contradiction to the ‘official’ rulebook, we must follow the rulebooks interpretation.
There is no ‘implied’ attempting to direct multiple game pieces in the rules. There is an implied definition of herding as ‘possession’ of multiple game pieces. Since possession is not specifically transitive you should be able to control 1 game piece with another. Unless someone can quote fron an ‘official’ source otherwise
