For those who missed it, in Semifinal 2 Match 2 of the Southern Cross Regional, Alliance 3 just got a red card and DQ-ed from the match (eliminating them from the competition since they lost SF2-1) after getting two yellow cards from both of their pilots climbing down the ladder of the airship while the field lights were purple. However, field reset lowered the ladders while the lights were still purple, which appears to be allowed as of now, and the head ref was perfectly following the current rules by issuing two yellow cards.
Personally I believe that the rule should be changed to prevent field reset from lowering ladders until the field lights are green, from both a safety and rational perspective. Leaving the rule as-is is just inviting more yellow/red cards and safety issues to happen, and for more students to be left crying on the field.
So during Semis 2 Match 2 everything was going well until the end of the match. The Blue alliance composed of 6579, 5985, and 6525 actually won the match. During the field reset a volunteer let down the ladder for the pilots of the blue alliance to leave but the lights on the field were not green. The pilots left the airship and then received two yellow cards resulting in a red card. This caused them to be knocked out of the Semis.
This is not fair and should be reviewed by FIRST HQ. Imagine how those pilots felt when they were told that they caused their teams to be knocked out the Semis. They were crying on the field.
Refs should be given more leeway when deciding fouls of those nature and teams should not be penalized for the actions of volunteers.
I saw lots of videos where pilots left the airship when the lights where purple. I even saw a match where the field staff instructed a team to leave the airship while the lights were still purple.
No, it wouldnât. It also wouldnât be that hard to had a stipulation that the pilots cannot get fouled or carded for instances where procedure for disembarking the airship has been followed otherwise. I seriously doubt anyone up there is actively paying attention to the lights after being up there for a match.
I feel terrible for these pilots. They (and their entire alliance) deserved a better fate than this. While two of the teams are playing in South Pacific, 6525 is not. Obviously, the situation isnât able to be corrected at this point, but I hope FIRST steps up and delivers a Champs bid for each of those affected teams.
We are watching that as well, and it was totally heartbreaking after such a great match to see the pilots having to be consoled on the field for something that shouldnât have been put in their hands to begin with. Cruel call.
Although it is unfortunate an alliance went out this way, it is very clearly stated in the rules that you cannot leave your airships until the lights are gree . Pilots need to be aware of this and check before disembarking. Also, please note that chiefdelphi is not an official first forum, so any complaints that you want actions taken towards, should be directed to first through official channels.
FIRST has historically stuck to giving fouls/cards for this sort of thing.
If somebody is having trouble carrying their robot and asks for help so they donât drop it, and you cross over the field gate while itâs closed, itâs a yellow card. Why should it be any different for leaving the airship while the lights are on?
Personally, I donât agree with FIRST on this one - just trying to say that unless there are some serious changes in their mentality, I donât think theyâll really do anything.
Technically, the pilots did not violate any rules.
S12
Climb facing the ladder, but donât operate it. PILOTS may only enter and exit the AIRSHIP
under the following criteria:
A. a member of the FIELD STAFF has released the ladder,
B. one rung at a time (though bottom rung may be skipped), and
C. facing your AIRSHIP.
Violation: Verbal warning. If jumped off AIRSHIP, YELLOW CARD. Repeated violations will be
addressed by the Head REFEREE, the Lead ROBOT Inspector and/or Event Management.
S04
Wait for the green lights. DRIVE TEAMS may only enter the FIELD if the LED strings are green,
unless explicitly instructed by a REFEREE or an FTA.
Violation: YELLOW CARD.
The pilots were in accordance with S12, and technically the were already in the field so they cannot physically enter the field again. S04 does not say you canât move around in the field.
At Indiana events the airship ladders have been lowered and the pilots have been allowed to leave the airship without receiving cards in all our matches so far.
S04. Wait for the green lights. DRIVE TEAMS may only enter the FIELD if the LED strings are green,
unless explicitly instructed by a REFEREE or an FTA.
Violation: YELLOW CARD.
Depends on whether the deck of the airship is part of the FIELD (for human presence purposes) or not.
Chief Delphi IS actively read by FIRST staff. They wouldnât ignore the largest FRC online community.
On topic, the field staff definitely should not have lowered the ladders if it was unsafe for the pilots to leave. Something needs to be done about this whole situation of overly restrictive pilot rules soon otherwise something stupid will happen on the big stage at Worlds. (which, I should add, FIRST is trying to bring to a bigger audience with the Twitch partnership that will not understand a championship being flipped on a technicality) Imagine if the last match of the finals, one alliance was way ahead and clearly deserved the title, but then it turns out that they grabbed a gear slightly wrong twice.
There are only two rules that apply to this scenario found within the 2017 STEAMWORKS Game Manual under âChapter 5 Safety Rules.â
The first of which is:
S04. Wait for the green lights. DRIVE TEAMS may only enter the FIELD if the LED strings are green, unless explicitly instructed by a REFEREE or an FTA.
Followed by:
S12. Climb facing the ladder, but donât operate it. PILOTS may only enter and exit the AIRSHIP under the following criteria:
A. a member of the FIELD STAFF has released the ladder,
B. one rung at a time, and
C. facing your AIRSHIP.
Based on these two rules, it is dependent on whether the airship is considered as part of the field or not. With that being said, the airships are very much a part of the field, therefore, your pilots did not violate any safety rules. Unfortunately whatâs been done is done and it is highly unlikely that any action can be taken regarding this unfortunate event.
**One critical event to note was the issuing of the violation by the referee. All referees must take a certification exam answering a series of questions. One question on this certification is:
When can pilot(s) exit the AIRSHIP?
The correct answer is:
Once a member of the FIELD STAFF has released the ladder.
Another answer selection was:
When the LED strings turn green.
However, choosing that second answer would have issued an incorrect answer. Thus concluding that both the field staff AND the referees made a bad judgement.**
We can only hope that none of this happens in future matches. As a referee in the upcoming FRC Hawaii Regional 2017 Iâll be sure to bring this up to the other referees as well as the field staff to avoid this from recurring at our regional.
There appears to be another thread regarding the same situation but I will address post my same response;
There are only two rules that apply to this scenario found within the 2017 STEAMWORKS Game Manual under âChapter 5 Safety Rules.â
The first of which is:
S04. Wait for the green lights. DRIVE TEAMS may only enter the FIELD if the LED strings are green, unless explicitly instructed by a REFEREE or an FTA.
Followed by:
S12. Climb facing the ladder, but donât operate it. PILOTS may only enter and exit the AIRSHIP under the following criteria:
A. a member of the FIELD STAFF has released the ladder,
B. one rung at a time, and
C. facing your AIRSHIP.
Based on these two rules, it is dependent on whether the airship is considered as part of the field or not. With that being said, the airships are very much a part of the field, therefore, your pilots did not violate any safety rules. Unfortunately whatâs been done is done and it is highly unlikely that any action can be taken regarding this unfortunate event.
**One critical event to note was the issuing of the violation by the referee. All referees must take a certification exam answering a series of questions. One question on this certification is:
When can pilot(s) exit the AIRSHIP?
The correct answer is:
Once a member of the FIELD STAFF has released the ladder.
Another answer selection was:
When the LED strings turn green.
However, choosing that second answer would have issued an incorrect answer. Thus concluding that both the field staff AND the referees made a bad judgement.**
We can only hope that none of this happens in future matches. As a referee in the upcoming FRC Hawaii Regional 2017 Iâll be sure to bring this up to the other referees as well as the field staff to avoid this from recurring at our regional.
This is rough, I am sure someone with actual power to deal with a rule interpretation like this will see this thread. It should also be conveyed through official channels. Like has already been said: whatâs done is done. This situation is in part do to three different parties; pilots for âenteringâ while the light wasnât green, field crew for making that option available in the first place, and the head ref for not handling that situation more elegantly.
In the event staff amd refâs defense. I remember ladders being released before green lights in the early qualification matches of Northern Lights. Now I could be mistaken about that, but keep in mind, the green light system has been a part of field safety for as long as I can remember. Making it at least 7 seasons old, it is as part of the field as the standard dimentions are.
My heart goes out to that alliance. Unfortunate, yes. But also, if this edge-case in the rules had to occur, that it is brought to the attention of those who can fix it quickly and effectively.
Now if those pilots were told to exit the airship FIRST needs to issue a formal apology to that alliance.
What a load of crap. FIRST HQ needs to apologize to all three teams and invite them all to worlds. This was such an unbelievably stupid call to make. The rules arenât even clear on this matter and even then, the pilots did not violate the spirit of the rules. I hope Frank sees this situation and makes things right with the affected teams.
For a start, I should probably put it out there that Iâm the driver for team 6579 Komplete Kaos Inc., one of the teams disqualified in this match.
We want to put it out there that as unfortunate as the call was, we accept the head referees decision which followed the rules truly. We also want to thank team 3132, 6061 and 6191 (the opposition alliance) for trying so hard to overturn the decision unsuccessfully.
Our pilot is okay now and also wants to thank everyone for their support.
We should also state that we received the rookie all star aware and highest rookie seed award, meaning we will be seeing everyone in Houston!
We do understand that people have issues with the rule, and we support trying to stop other alliances in playoffs experiencing the effects of this rule. We also however respect how FIRST have made all the rules for the game, and have put a lot of effort into making this game work, and the difficulty of creating the rules to work. We also recognise that this probably isnât how the rule was intended to work.
To the volunteer who dropped the ladder, we would like you to know that we hold nothing against you at all, and that we respect that you volunteered yourself and put in a lot of hard work and effort into helping this regional run.
Thanks to everyone from the support on behalf of the third seed alliance at the southern cross regional.