Can Burglar Rules Questions

From Looking Forward

Will we see more tugs of war and entangled mechanisms? Will we see red cards? It’s hard to say for certain, as teams are engaged in a convert arms race to be the fastest burglars out there and many teams will be heading in with new or improved systems than what they have shown before. Each mechanism will interact with the cans, the robot as a whole, and other burglars in a unique fashion. As a result, there likely won’t be some uniform answer to the questions above.

I have been looking through a whole slew of CD posts and that one post by Looking_Forward. Can burglar operations and rules violations are a little murky to me at this point and I am wondering whether people think an official post of sorts will be forthcoming before the Championships. Specifically, I have two scenarios which I have seen in various competitions and I am looking to see what rules infractions and penalties, if any, people think will be called at the Championships.

Scenario one:
Red Alliance burglar faces off against Blue Alliance burglar. Red alliance arms only go to the middle of the bin, Blue Alliance arms pass the bin and cross onto the red side. Red gets to the bin first, then Blue’s arms impact Red’s arms on the red side of the field, G-18 violation, right? Foul? At this point in the season, could it be argued that extending beyond the step is strategic and therefore a Red Card? Exactly how does one define ‘egregious’? Certainly causing Red to lose the bin or breaking their arms is ‘really bad’, at least to Red, especially on Einstein.

Scenario two:
Red Alliance burglar faces off against Blue Alliance burglar. Red alliance arms only go to the middle of the bin, Blue Alliance arms go to the middle of the bin. They are about equal speed, and a tug-of-war ensues. Red wins and pulls the bin onto the red side, and Blue’s arms are still attached. G-18 violation? Probably not, it was not intentional. How long is that ok for? Can blue continue to fight against red in this tug-of-war indefinitely? Once you’ve ‘lost’, do you have to let go right away?

Being that the general consensus is that finals will likely be won using fast can burglars, then wouldn’t clearly knowing what would be enforced in these pretty common scenarios be good to know ahead of time, consistently, across all eight divisions?

not a professional, this is just based off of what I have seen
Scenario 1: Probably a yellow card and a warning: they were not intending to break anything, but they still broke a rule
Scenario 2: assuming that Red and Blue’s arms are not touching, but are instead touching only the bin, no penalites are given to Red, but blue gets a detatchment penalty (I think)

For the first question, the Q&A has ruled that crossing the plane with the intent to grab cans is strategic, and will be considered a red card. https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/500/our-autonomous-crosses-beyond-the-step-http-bit-ly-1j085cs-opponents-have-attempted-to-draw-contact-from-us-by-placing-robots-on-their-side-of-the-step-our-intention-is-always-to-acquire-the-bin and https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/501/we-are-competing-in-st-louis-at-the-championship-event-and-are-seeking-clarification-on-how-this-situation-will-be-called-there-a-violation-of-g18-has-two-penalties-a-foul-or-a-red-card-although

As for the second one, that one could honestly go either way.

Along the same lines I have a scenario to present:

Lets say both alliances have can grabbers, each with a fast one and a “slow” one, they line up the fast can grabbers against each other and the same for the slow ones. One alliance knows that both of their can grabbers are slightly slower and will lose the race. What’s to stop an alliance from just (beyond the regular field set-up time limit) switching the bots in the last few seconds to split the difference and at least get two cans. Or in a similar scenario the faster alliance switches their bots to ensure they get all four cans.

Just something that was brought up in casual conversation, I doubt this situation will come up seeing as most can grabbers are within the general range of grabbing the RCs in <1s. Just an idea, and perhaps could see the matches be a lot closer against the fast grabbers.

Thanks for the response on scenario one, that is kind of the way we were hoping it would go. Scenario two is still interesting. Could someone attach a tether to a bin, and then let it get won, then pull it back at any point in the future of that match then?

Originally Posted by Vupa
What’s to stop an alliance from just (beyond the regular field set-up time limit) switching the bots in the last few seconds to split the difference and at least get two cans. Or in a similar scenario the faster alliance switches their bots to ensure they get all four cans.

From Section 5.1 of the game manual:

If order placement of ROBOTS matters to either or both ALLIANCES, the ALLIANCE must notify the Head REFEREE during setup for that MATCH. Upon notification, the Head REFEREE will require ALLIANCES to alternate placement of their ROBOTS, starting with the Red ALLIANCE.

So, if blue was the slower alliance, it certainly seems that they could do that.

What’s to stop an alliance from just (beyond the regular field set-up time limit) switching the bots in the last few seconds to split the difference and at least get two cans. Or in a similar scenario the faster alliance switches their bots to ensure they get all four cans.

The rules account for this. The higher seeded team must place their robot first. Yes, this is counter to what you would expect to be the advantage of being the higher ranked team.

How does that work on Einstein. I would think there isn’t a higher seed since it is the winners from all 8 fields. Random draw?

Or whoever is on blue is assumed to be the lower seed. Either way works.

As quoted above, teams can ask to place red-blue-red-blue-red-blue. They must tell the head ref.

But let’s go back to the original question in post 4 of this thread. After all robots have been placed, one or both alliances decide to shift positions. This could become a violation G10:

G10 DRIVE TEAMS may not cause significant or repeated delays to the start of a MATCH.
VIOLATION: The offending ROBOT will be DISABLED

Specifically this point in the blue box following:

C. being indecisive about where/how to position a ROBOT or Yellow TOTE

I was going to say no foul in scenario 2 based on teams not being able to force an opponent to receive a foul, but that rule seems to be missing this year though…