CDI Question

Posted by Raul.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 9/28/2000 6:35 AM MST

I know that you have not distributed the rules yet, but I would like to start a discussion on one of the forums favorite topics: Tipping.

Last year you allowed mechanisms to be made for tipping. It is interesting that even though the rules allowed it, no one made such a device (or at least I never saw one). Will tipping mechanisms be allowed again this year?

Raul

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 9/28/2000 6:48 AM MST

In Reply to: CDI Question posted by Raul on 9/28/2000 6:35 AM MST:

Raul,

Haven’t really discussed it yet.

Let us know what you think of the rule.

Joe J.

Posted by Raul.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 10/11/2000 5:23 PM MST

In Reply to: Yes… No… Maybe… posted by Joe Johnson on 9/28/2000 6:48 AM MST:

I prefer it NOT be allowed. If if you do - look out!

Raul

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 10/11/2000 5:37 PM MST

In Reply to: No Tipping please. posted by Raul on 10/11/2000 5:23 PM MST:

Raul,

I know that tipping & pinning rules are intended to make the game interesting. I also know that if a team sets out to be lean, mean, tipping machine, that team is going to be very hard to beat.

My issue with these rules is that they are very hard for the judges to enforce. It requires the refs to get into the hearts and minds of the drivers.

Last year we had no rules about either tipping or pinning. I have to say that it worked out very well. BUT a nasty team might have really put a spanner in the works (as Lynn Monica might say now that she’s been living with the Brits so lone :wink:

I am thinking that perhaps last year we didn’t have any tippers and pinners because getting a machine that ran at all was so difficult (due largely to mistakes in kit design by yours truly). With two more weeks and improvements to the kit, things might be different this year.

All I can say is that we are talking about it.

What does everyone else have to say on the subject?

Joe J.

Posted by Bill Beatty.

Other on team #71, Team Hammond, from Team Hammond.

Posted on 10/12/2000 8:45 AM MST

In Reply to: Hmmm… posted by Joe Johnson on 10/11/2000 5:37 PM MST:

Sure, the refs have a tough job with judgement calls. I think the posibility of getting some bad or questional judgement calls is preferable to wide open tipping or pining. I guess that is why the refs make the big bucks.

Bill B

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 10/12/2000 9:06 PM MST

In Reply to: Tipping/Pinning-No Blocking-OK posted by Bill Beatty on 10/12/2000 8:45 AM MST:

Bill & Raul,

As we have said before we are very reluctant to get into judging intent. To that end, we have worked hard to think through a game and qualifying point system that rewards DOING something rather than preventing something, thus making the Tipping/Pinning problem less of an issue.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME…

We are sensitive to the participating teams’ desires (not to mention frightened by Raul’s thinly veiled threat to upset the whole apple cart by building a lean mean tipping machine).

So…

This is where we think we are going. We would like comments.

It is not in the spirit of the competition to intentionally tip an opponent or to intentionally pin an opponent against the outer railing or the (field equipment to be named later).

If, in the course of accomplishing some other goal needed to win the match or maximize Q-points, one robot tips another robot, that is regretable, but acceptable. Intentional tipping outside of this exception is not allowed. Robots that are deemed to have violated this rule will have their entire alliance disqualified for that match (automatic loss & no Q-points accrued).

Robots are not allowed to prevent motion of another robot by forcing it into either the outter railing or the (field equipment to be named later). Pinning against railing or (field equipment to be named later). is not acceptable. A lot of robot interactin is expect and allowed, including but not limited to the following examples:

Two robot may pin another robot between them in the open field.
Getting in a robot’s way is allowed.
Pushing a robot to prevent it from getting where it wants to go is allowed.
Pushing a robot to get it out or your way is allow.
Pushing a robot to ‘make a hole’ for an alliance robot is allowed.
Pushing a robot to move it to an auspicious position for your alliance is allowed.

Violations will result in a warning followed by disqualification of the offending alliance (automatic loss and no Q-point for the match) .

Please share your comments.

Joe J.

Posted by Raul.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 10/13/2000 7:02 AM MST

In Reply to: Squeaky wheel gets some grease… posted by Joe Johnson on 10/12/2000 9:06 PM MST:

: Two robot may pin another robot between them in the open field.
: Getting in a robot’s way is allowed.
: Pushing a robot to prevent it from getting where it wants to go is allowed.
: Pushing a robot to get it out or your way is allow.
: Pushing a robot to ‘make a hole’ for an alliance robot is allowed.
: Pushing a robot to move it to an auspicious position for your alliance is allowed.

: Violations will result in a warning followed by disqualification of the offending alliance (automatic loss and no Q-point for the match) .

I think that the no intentional tipping rule is good. The no pinning rule may be a little tougher to judge.

  1. What if a robot pushes another robot out of the way and against the rails or whatever temporarily?
  2. What if they break down right after they push the robot and cannot move?

In case #1, we should have a time limit like they do in FIRST.
In case #2, the referees would have to see it the robot doing the pinning was damaged or not operating for some other reason.

If a robot pins another for more than the time limit, they should get a warning. If they still do not move away after another time limit period and to the end of the match, the referees should determine after the match if the robot was somehow incapacitated. If it was, then they only got the warning against them. If they weren’t, then they should be disqualified.

That’s my two cents.

Raul