In the Curie Division we were paired twice with robots that did not show up for the match. Also, a non working robot was in an alliance with us. In all 3 instances our alliance lost. Our kids put in over 2,400 hours of work after school to build our “bot”. I advocate using a substitute “bot” for these kind of matches. Our hard working kids deserve a fair chance in a match without being penalized by a situation beyond their control. It is nearly impossible to win a 2 vs 3 match which is fustrating to a team. A similar situation also occured at the Florida Regional which cost us two matches. Why aren’t there penalties for being a no show?
What is your opinion?
Jacob,
I certainly empathize, but there’s no real fair way to choose a substitute either. And yes, a no show team is penalized. See your manual:
From 9.3.6 Match Point Exceptions
“A team is declared a no-show if no member of the team is in the ALLIANCE ZONE at the start of the match; a no-show team will be disqualified from that match. During the qualification matches, teams can be individually disqualified in a match. A disqualifiedteam will receive zero qualifying points and zero ranking points.”
So the team that does not show receives a significantly higher penalty than those that show up, especially if an alliance wins with those two teams that showed up. This was the case on Galileo, when one red team was a no show in match six, however the red alliance was able to win.
Please note that in the human player shows up, this is NOT a no show situation and also please see your manual for the use of QP’s and RP’s. While there’s no doubt it was tough on your team this year and unfortunate that it happened multiple times, one could argue that you’d be penalizing the alliance that showed up with all members.
That is very unfortunate and very discouraging isn’t it. Some would say, the situation you described is unfortunate - BUT all part of the game.
This is a very tough situation when robots get damaged in earlier matches and cannot be repaired in time for their next match. Having partners that cannot help because they are broke is just as frustrating for that team- I’m sure that they would rather be playing the game too.
If alliances are going to be continued to be used, perhaps a suggestion like this could be considered.
If a team shows up without their robot because it is broken and not able to run, the opposing alliance is then asked to sit out one of their alliance partners. (mutually agreed upon by that alliance and if they can’t agree a random method (draw straws) is used.
All alliance partners would recieve the results of the match as though all robots had played.
I know this means an opposing alliance partner is not going to be happy that they were not able to play in those matches either - but, as Rich K has stated - there really isn’t a way to make this situation FAIR to everyone, in every situation.
Mike Aubry
This also happened twice to us, and 3 times at GLR. Its all bad luck and ya gota live with it. Our robot never broke down/ missed a match and I consider that our biggest achievement of the year. In past years we had broken down or gotten stuck in matchs and it was always a bad expirience (aka a good educational expirience).
I can’t think of any way to change this to make it fair, The only advice I can extend is send some one from your team over to there pit immediatly after their last match before the match with you. Have this person check and make sure the bot is all set for the next match, if it isn’t offer them parts/help. When your team goes to que for the match, if you don’t see your alliance partners coming stop by their pit and ask if they are coming. If they still no-show or field a broken bot then just go out there, play your game and show what your bot can do. The teams that you want to ba picked by don’t care about your win/loss record, just your performance.
I am aware of the rule (9.3.6 quoted by Rich) that gives a no show team a 0 QP penalty in a winning situation. However, in a losing situation, everybody gets a 0 QP on the alliance. Where is the penalty for the no show team? Perhaps they should have a -1 QP in this instance.
Also why should a human player count as a team being present since this is a robotic competion? In most cases, this will still be a loss for the short handed alliance. Where is the penalty for them having no show robot?
In both no show cases, the robot was capable of running but it could work at less than 100%. A wounded soldier is better than no soldier on the battlefield. Both times they chose not to come to the match and they chose not tell anyone about their situation/decision. We have helped teams numerous times with parts or manpower whether they were with us or against us in the competition.
We always check on our alliance partners before a match because they might need assistance. In all cases we were told that either nothing was wrong or no help was needed. Again, two teams of hard working kids get a penalty because of a 3rd team’s lack of gracious professionalism.:ahh:
AFAIK, we haven’t been in this position for any real qualifying matches, but I can see what you are saying.
Yes, it does suck not having a full alliance. Yes, it does put you at a significant disadvantage. But this truly is part of the game.
Really, their 'bot not working is not just their fault. As an alliance, (at the risk of sounding insensitive) it is partially your team’s fault, too. Well ahead of time, you should ask the team how they are doing. Check if everything is working; check if they need help. We have done that more than once–we helped a team at West Michigan; they wouldn’t have been able to pass inspection if we hadn’t helped them out. This is something the competition is designed to encourage.
And there is an element of luck. There’s not much you can do about that.
I’m not trying to be insensitive. Please don’t take this wrong. But I don’t think there’s anything FIRST can do to level the playing field here. Not to mention it would make the match generator’s job even more horrible…
JBot
What we have here is a no win…
Robots being no shows or DNF is a fact of the game and life.
I must strongly object to the idea of making one of the other bots from the match sit out.
There really isn’t a way to make it fair for the alliance thats forced to compete short handed.
There are a few things that could be done to make it feel better.
- Award extra bonus points to the alliance that wins a match shorthanded.
- Let the short alliance invite a replacement bot from the same color alliance to fill in. The fill in team should be rewarded for filling in at the last moment.
- If the same robot no-shows twice in the season… pack it up and send it to storage.
FYI… In motocross if you no show for a heat, you no go to the main.
Anyhow… them just my thoughts on the matter.
Being from your other alliance partner in the first match where you got stood up (team #558), I totally symptathize but agree that it’s just part of life. You guys had a great ramp and really had some tough breaks in the qualifying.
I’m going to chime in on this one, since the 2 robots you mentioned, were well known at the Curie inspection area.
I’m not going to mention team numbers, (but the teams were right next to each other in the pits), but both of them showed up with illegal part (pneumatics and transmissions) on their robots, and didn’t get their initial inspections until mid/late afternoon on Thursday.
As I pointed it out in another thread, Kudos go to Teams 1114 and 599 (whom didn’t even have a FRC team at the championships … ), both of the teams had several students (and some mentors), who camped out in one of the pits until the robot was running. There were a couple other teams who came over and helped, but I don’t recall their numbers (sorry.) - I heard several times that the reason 1114 was helping, was because 1114 had a match with them and did not want to go in 2v3. On Friday, there was at least 1 inspector camped out at each pit until the teams passed.
With that being said, the students on the actual teams did not appear to be that motivated, especially when judges attempted to talk to the students (one instance, the students actually argued in front of the judge, who was going to talk to her; no one wanted to do it … I was SHOCKED - typically my students swarm the judges when they come to our pits).
Personally, I think substituting robots wouldn’t be fair - how would it be picked? and it would go against what FIRST tries to accomplish in the pits; teams working together to achieve a common goal.
It’s sad to see weak alliances, and no show bots (and in the end, it really hurts other teams - look at 180 on Curie, SF at their regional, but finished 1-5-1, and seeded in the mid 70’s … was it their fault? Absolutely not), but it’s a part of the game. I said it in other threads, but 180 should of been drafted. Sadly, the system doesn’t always work as it should.
Keep in mind, while wins help, people who know how to do scouting, can see the potential of bots that lose matches. Anyone scouting a match when it’s 2v3, knows that the side with 3 bots will almost always win. But, 2 robots can still play one hell of a defensive game against the 3. If your team is in an alliance that has a no show, make sure YOUR team uses it as an example of what not to do. Reading the (robot) rules during build season, paying attention to the inspection sheet, gathering every single spare part for your robot, having an experienced pit crew, and preventive maintenance on your robot, will put you in a much better position. Sending your spare teammates or students out to teams that you’re going to be running with is a good idea also (only if your robot is running perfectly 
)
And I gotta say it one more time (not to hijack the thread) - 1114 and 599, you guys rock. I’m not too familiar with 1114, but 599 has been at most of the regionals my team made it to, and their team never ceases to amaze me. You guys are probably the only CA team that I wouldn’t mind being beat at a Chairmans award for. How’s that for GP? 
Our coach takes match strategy very seriously, and will usually have scouted out teams that we will be with for a while. He comes back to the pit and we send over a mechanical or other group to help them out if they’re in some sort of trouble. We usually stick around and watch if they say it’s fine, and offer assistance anyway.
You won’t be able to change much of the rule system, but you can change how your team rolls with part of the game, and change how you work within the system. Good luck next year!
We had six out of our seven matches a robot broke or malfunctioned its disappointing yes but part of the game. The only time all our bots on our team worked we broke. We scored an average of four ringers except the match we broke and ended up 1-5-1 a disappointing finish but our team understands its part of the game. Before you get on here and start demanding penalties and such, try to find a solution. My team has had many discussions over this as it seems we had a really bad year when it came to pairing, but there is no right or wrong solution every solution has pro’s and con’s all I’m saying is there isn’t a sure fire way to solve this so I don’t know what to tell you other than every team has this problem from time to time, but don’t be to quick to be mad at a team for a faulty robot they put just as much time in as you and next time it could be your robot that is broke.
We were in this position for none of the matches this year, but last year we felt it… hard. We were paired alone once, and with no partner 3 times. it was pretty awful.
Actually (this may not help…) this year in the championship practice rounds, we were alone and managed to sneak out a win and then a tie. (34-0, 20-20)