Chief Delphi went to three regionals?

FIRST General Forum
1

Can anyone explain to me why Team 47 Chief Delphi, who has been registered for the Nationals since the beginning of the registration period and who has already attended two regionals in Cleveland and Ypsilanti, was allowed to participate in the Western Michigan Regional? My understanding of the rules was that a team was only allowed to schedule a maximum of three events. Assuming CD is still going to Nats, they will have attended four events by season’s end. Is this fair? Are there any other teams who have been allowed to do this? I understand that, under the original rules, it was originally possible for a team NOT INITIALLY ELIGIBLE for Nationals at the beginning of the season to schedule three regionals and then go to Nats if they meet the eligibility requirement, but like I said, CD was scheduled for Cleveland, Ypsilanti, and the Championship Event since the beginning, so they don’t fall under this category.

   I know of several teams going to Nats this year who saw the many regional openings listed on the FIRST website during the middle of the season and asked FIRST if they could attend a third regional, but they were not allowed to do so.  A couple weeks ago, FIRST was adamant about following their three event policy, so what has changed in that time to allow a team like CD to circumvent these rules?  I think both ChiefDelphi and FIRST owe every team an explanation, if only to clear the air about this situation, and FIRST owes the teams who tried to register for three regionals earlier this season an apology for going back on their word.  In some cases, an extra regional could have been the difference between qualifying for the Championship Event and not going to Florida in 2003.  To be denied an additional opportunity to qualify and then to later witness a powerhouse team like ChiefDelphi - a team already going to Nats - attend an additional third event - I imagine that must have hurt everyone on those teams deeply. 

 I think FIRST needs to seriously evaluate their decision making process in the offseason and make a dedicated effort to get better organized PRIOR TO the start of the season so that all the inconsistent rule interpretations, midseason rule changes, regional scheduling problems, and all the other inconsistencies of this season do not come back to afflict the program in future seasons.  It is unfortunate that such a great program has been marred by such conflicts this year.  Still, the game this season has been truly exciting, and I look forward to witnessing a great event in Florida.

Thanks,

a FIRST fan

2

Chief Delphi is not the only team to do this, there are many other teams. However, the Western Michigan Regional had few teams as it was, and there would have been far fewer if teams like Chief Delphi didn’t attend 3 regionals.

Also, I believe that the event there in Grand Rapids may have been sponsored by Delphi, and they could’ve have been there to show support for their sponsor and help their team politically.

Congratulations to Chief Delphi on their win with the Killer Bees and team 888. Also, congratulations to the teams who got the national high score of 156 (47, 67, 68:D , and 503)

3

You are correct in your posting - FIRST allowed a number of teams to go after the regional events registration started dropping due to teams cancelling because of travel or funding. There were teams that were registered for 3 regionals and later added the nationals making their total 4 events. We were even approached by a couple of sponsors of other venues asking if we would be interesting in attending their regional. We originally sent in money for 3 regionals, as we have done 3 in the past years - and waited patiently until it was cleared that we could attend the 3rd one - only after assuring that everyone that wanted to go to the regionals had been accomodated. Both Toronto and Western Michigan had over 10 available slots.
If you have a problem with FIRST and the inconsistancy in the rules, take it up with them. Seems rather ludicrous that you have chosen the handle you have - seems to me to be the furthest from the truth.
Don’t embarrass your team now by posting who you really are.
I’m proud of our team, the way that we patiently waited to get approval to go - we have nothing to be ashamed of. Please back off and don’t try to embarrass us any further.
By the way, BDuggan - thank you so very much for the congrats, you guys are always a top notch team - congrats on your season and good luck in Florida.

4

I don’t believe there’s any need to get angry over my question, and I thank you for your explanation, Mr. Aubry. I am rather disappointed in you for questioning my love of the FIRST program, however, especially when I am advocating an equal and fair opportunity for all FIRST teams. There is no need to become antagonistic over an innocent question.

As for being “embarrassed” about my posting, I am most definitely not ashamed of the manner in which I posed the question to you and other Chief Delphi readers, and I don’t feel I should have to “back off”, as you so politely requested. I was simply looking for an explanation for FIRST’s inconsistency in treatment between the teams like Chief Delphi that were allowed entry into a third regional and those who were denied entry, even though these teams completed the same 3 regional registration process at the beginning of the year, and even though there were also openings in the additional regionals they wished to attend. And while I understand the reasoning behind allowing teams like 47 to enter into a third event, one must question the fairness of permitting a limited number of teams a third chance at real competition experience before nationals, when other equally-deserving teams were shut out of such an opportunity. At the beginning of the season, FIRST failed to provide an adequate supply of regional slots to all teams, and they made the decision to limit participation to a maximum of three events per team. While many teams planning on attending four events were initially disappointed with this decision, I believe most eventually agreed with it because it was a fair and just way of handling the situation. Now that FIRST had yet again changed directions regarding an early-season ruling and allowed certain teams to participate in an additional event, they have again alienated and hurt many of the FIRST family who did not deserve such treatment. Those who scrapped plans for a tether device at the beginning of the season based upon FIRST’s rulings only to have most every tether under the sun allowed at regionals have experienced a similar feeling. I believe certain members of Chief Delphi were vocal in their disappointment over the tether ruling; how is this new ruling regarding event participation any different in how it affects teams?

 To my knowledge, there are many representatives of FIRST who read the Chief Delphi forums, so I know of no better place to question the way they have executed certain aspects of this year's competition.  Public discussion of these issues drives change, which improves the quality of the competition and experience for all teams.  This is something I'm certain every member of Chief Delphi would approve of.

All I ask of FIRST is to be as consistent and fair with their rulings as possible. If they cannot deliver on this request, then the entire program suffers as a result. I am not seeing much consistency this season, and I fear this inconsistency threatens the integrity of the game.

FIRSTfan

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Thanks for clearing that up - but might I suggest something that has seemed to work in the past. I’ll assume since you are a FIRSTfan that you are aware of the summer meetings where each team has an opportunity to send representatives and discuss the past years events, issues and concerns. That forum has been the best place to share these type concerns. There has been alot of inconsistancy this year - but BASHING us or FIRST = isn’t going to change the rules now, so take those arguments and concerns you have to the meeting and try to make a positive difference there.
Over the years alot of veteran teams (and rookies, too) have been allowed to visit our website and share their opinions, ideas, rumors, announcements, etc. - I have been the loudest proponent of what you may call “free speech” as long it was clean and not overtly accusational. This board has served the FIRST community well and we (team 47 and the administrators) try not to be overbearing policeman (the community of posters at this site do an really good job themselves so we don’t have to)
If you thought I was antagonistic - I wasn’t trying to be - I was stating the facts - you asked for an explanation and I gave you one. When did “respect” cease to have meaning? I would never ever disrespect anyone by coming into their home and spewing innuendos and trash talking them - but, maybe thats just I was raised to respect others. Thanks - for listening.

6

FIRSTfan,

I do agree with you that there is nothing wrong with having a question about something which might trouble you. What I think troubles some on the forums is how people go about some of these questions. I can’t speak for Mike Aubry or Team 47, but I myself would also have been upset about how the question was posted.
As I said, there is nothing wrong with having a question, not understanding a situation, not knowing the details behind a special circumstance, and so on. But if you question something of which you have zero knowledge of the circumstances involved - then PLEASE…ask the parties involved and get the correct information.
In this instance, if you had e-mailed Team 47 or called FIRST to get an answer, you would have learned that some of your statements in your original post were unfounded and unnecessary. Team 47 COMPLETELY followed all the rules:

  • They never registered for more than 3 events during the initial registration period
  • They only decided to enter a third regional AFTER they saw that ALL teams had gotten in and that NO teams were on waiting lists
  • Many regional events had seen their capacity open up as teams dropped out (either to go to Nationals, or due to other circumstances) and these regionals WANTED more teams to enter
  • 47 was NOT the only team to go to a third regional as you claimed
  • and what is not known to many is that the leaders of team 47 even went out of there way to approach some other teams still hanging around after the Cleveland Regional to ask them if they thought there was anything wrong with them entering an additional event. They were concerned about it and didn’t want to go unless they knew it was not a special exception for them (as other teams were also allowed to add an event) and they also wanted FIRST to confirm that NO team was on a waiting list or was not allowed to compete in that event. I think that kind of genuine concern for other teams is very impressive and says alot about the character of team 47.

FIRSTfan - to be fair, there is no way you could have known these details. What I think Mike may have been offended by (and something which has bothered me in this forum) is that you posted judgements for ALL teams to read, WITHOUT first asking team 47. If you had just asked them, they would have been happy to explain the details to you. All teams, as I’m sure yours does, work VERY hard to build a good reputation and a good program for their students. No one wants to see an uninformed post on a national forum give false information to ALL FIRST teams which unfairly might tarnish the hard earned reputation of a team.
Similar things have been posted which were totally false but could have unfairly influenced how a team is viewed by the FIRST community. Another example was when someone made a post that it was unfair that FORD built a robot for the Kingman team every year. If that person had just called team 60 or e-mailed them, they would have learned that FORD is not involved in the design or construction of 1 single piece of that robot (FORD only provides some financial sponsorship, no engineers or building assistance), and that team 60 actually only has 2 very dedicated machinists and some very dedicated parents & teachers who work with the kids year round. But because team 60 built such an amazing robot and has a person help powder coat the robot as an “in kind” donation - some people “assume” that FORD and a bunch of engineers build the entire robot. Those claims could have discredited the achievements and hard work done by that team, but would never have been posted if those with doubts had just gotten the correct information before posting an assumption.
My point is that when people make a post which challenges the integrity of a team WITHOUT first getting the details to make an informed judgement - they not only speak out of line, but they unfairly impact how OTHER FIRST teams may view them. These two examples of totally false and untrue assumptions about teams 47 and 60 are just two recent examples - I know many teams have had false information about their team posted on these forums, and it must be a very helpless and frustrating feeling when it happens.

My only hope is that before people question a team or any situation with the appearance of unfairness involving a team - ask those involved to provide you with an answer BEFORE you post your opinion to the country. If after you get reliable and accurate information, you still feel there is something important the rest of the teams should know and/or can learn from - then by all means, share it on these forums. These forums are a great resource for the entire FIRST community, mostly because of the exchange of different ideas & opinions…when they are voiced with respect and are based on facts instead of assumptions.

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As the team leader I am responsible for registration.

We were only allowed to go to three events - 2 regionals and the Nationals. As I was reviewing what teams were going where, I noticed several teams going to 4 events. I questioned FIRST about this. The response was that they had many teams change plans and drop regionals because of 911 and money problems.

Several regionals were very small. FIRST loses money if the regional is not to a certain level. In fact the more regionals a team attends the more money FIRST gets to support the regional. A 20 team regional would not cover expenses of the regional. Remember you pay for the kit 1 time but pay entry fee each time.

The West Michigan regional was down to 40 registrations ( 20 below capacity) 4 teams took this as a 3rd regional at the last min.( one team already had this as their 3rd regional).

If you look at the stats you will find more than a handful of teams going to 4 events this year, not just us.

We have done 4 events for the last 5 years.

I agree that decisions from FIRST have been difficult this year. Take a second and step back to consider the growing pains and effects of 911 as well as the economy. Their lives have not been simple or smooth. They are learning how to adjust and adapt.

Lets have faith in them. They are a very good hard working staff. Overworked and I am sure underpaid.

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I think FIRSTfan has a point and should be allowed to speak his/her mind.

I for one did not read FIRSTfans post as “47 bashing”. I would never have known that some teams were allowed to compete in more than 3 events without this post so I think of it as useful information.

I’m interested in this because we raised funds to attend more than 3 events this year but were asked by FIRST to drop two in the name of Gracious Professionalism to allow other teams a chance to compete. We had no problem with that, since the rule applied to all, so we thought.

The problem is that along with other major rule reversals, FIRST never (to my knowledge) made it clear to all teams that you had the option to backfill those events that were under utilized.

This has nothing to do with 47, they just happened to get the word that this was a possibility. But in getting the chance to compete again, and given the new “points” rule, I do feel that these teams were given an advantage. Just another line item for the gripe list I’ll send to FIRST later this year.

Thanks FIRSTfan for your comments, I read the true meaning in your post and see your point.

As for team 47, you guys are one of the big dogs in our world and will always be watched, analyzed, and respected. Please step back and look at this as though you were on the other side of the fence. What if you were denied this opportunity only because of a lack of communication. I’m sure you can understand the frustration.

I agree that FIRST is under a lot of pressure, but what happened this year is a little outside of correcting minor mistakes. We need to get together as a community and express our concerns to FIRST and simplify the process so this kind of stuff is not a problem in the future.

9

First of all, thank you, Ed for your support and for understanding the true message I was trying to convey.

Thank you also to Mr. Martus for rationally and calmly explaining Chief Delphi’s course of action regarding this matter. You have answered my original question. Now I’m simply waiting for someone in the FIRST organization to tell me why teams who went through the same process earlier in the season were denied entry into additional events when openings were available.

*Originally posted by meaubry *
Thanks for clearing that up - but might I suggest something that has seemed to work in the past. I’ll assume since you are a FIRSTfan that you are aware of the summer meetings where each team has an opportunity to send representatives and discuss the past years events, issues and concerns. That forum has been the best place to share these type concerns. There has been alot of inconsistancy this year - but BASHING us or FIRST = isn’t going to change the rules now, so take those arguments and concerns you have to the meeting and try to make a positive difference there.

I do not believe that I ever engaged in “BASHING” you for your actions; instead, I was posing the question of whether or not it was fair to other teams that FIRST was ALLOWING you (and apparently several other teams) to do something when teams who wanted to do the same thing previously were denied. I also asked the question “Are there any other teams who have been allowed to do this?”, so anyone who believes I am singling your team out is greatly mistaken. Is what you or any of the other teams did to schedule a third regional underhanded or wrong? No, I don’t believe so, but the fact remains that earlier in the season, there were other teams who followed the EXACT SAME series of steps that you took under the EXACT SAME conditions in an attempt to add another regional to their schedules, and FIRST denied them. What is the reasoning behind this inconsistency? I think those teams that were spurned back then have a right to know. According to FIRST’s own website, ALL of the March 21-23 regionals had at least 2 open spots available. Why were these positions not allowed to be filled by willing teams? And why did FIRST suddenly decide to change its mind during the last week of regionals? Based upon what Mr. Martus has revealed to us, am I now supposed to assume that the financial health of FIRST has changed so dramatically over the past month that they would switch from a position of sacrificing income for Gracious Professionalism, equality, and fairness to all a month ago to a position of maximizing team regional fee income in the present? I find this a hard pill to swallow. Don’t those guys over at FIRST read their own press? Dean isn’t auctioning off three Segways so he can buy another helicopter; he’s donating 100% of the proceeds to the FIRST program, proceeds which will, if I remember correctly, be in excess of $300,000. For those of you without calculators, that’s the equivalent of 75 TEAM REGIONAL FEES @ $4000 a pop - more than enough to cover the lack of participation at Western Michigan and other events. And lest we forget, Dean is a genius, a shrewd businessman, and therefore, a multimillionaire, and FIRST is his baby; I highly doubt he would let his program ever sink into financial ruin. So I think that FIRST is and has been quite prepared to weather any economic storm that is currently raging. In my opinion, something doesn’t quite add up here, and I won’t be satisfied until I am presented with a clear, logical and public explanation of FIRST’s actions by a member of the FIRST organization in this forum.

Public criticism, when presented in a constructive manner, does not equal “BASHING”! FIRST is not beyond reproach. I know the organization has many fine men and women working hard to organize and produce this great robotics competition each year, but just because they are a bunch of nice people doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be held accountable for their mistakes. And I feel that it’s better to bring up and discuss these issues in a public forum as soon as they arise, not wait until after the season is over. People like Mr. Sparks deserve to know NOW about situations like these, so that they may be better prepared to address the issue in the present as well as when it is brought up in the postseason meetings.

*Originally posted by meaubry *
** When did “respect” cease to have meaning? I would never ever disrespect anyone by coming into their home and spewing innuendos and trash talking them - but, maybe thats just I was raised to respect others. Thanks - for listening. **

Nor would I, Michael. I think you read too much into my words. All of my arguments have been solely based on a questioning of FIRST’s decision-making practices, not the behavior or actions of Chief Delphi and other teams in general. As far as respect goes, well, I guess my ignorant self will just have to ask your parents about that topic, since they’ve obviously done such a bang-up job of instilling that quality in you.

Thanks,

FIRSTfan

10

“As far as respect goes, well, I guess my ignorant self will just have to ask your parents about that topic, since they’ve obviously done such a bang-up job of instilling that quality in you.”

That was most inappropriate, as I let my emotions get the best of me. I apologize. I hope Mr. Aubry understands that I’m just trying to get to the root cause of a problem which unquestionably exists, and my problem continues to be with FIRST, NOT Team 47 or any of the other Nationals-bound teams who were allowed to compete in a third regional.

FIRSTfan

11

The people with criticism for FIRST about the extensions and inconsistency at different regionals all have solid points. FIRST has already stated they are aware of the issues regarding the entanglement rules and inconsistency - they are expecting teams to voice their suggestions after the season and I hope all teams do - as listening to team input is how MANY positive changes were made by FIRST after last year.

But some of the complaints in this thread just aren’t valid.

I’m interested in this because we raised funds to attend more than 3 events this year but were asked by FIRST to drop two in the name of Gracious Professionalism to allow other teams a chance to compete. We had no problem with that, since the rule applied to all, so we thought. The problem is that along with other major rule reversals, FIRST never (to my knowledge) made it clear to all teams that you had the option to backfill those events that were under utilized.

Ed, it was very gracious of your team to withdraw from events when they all had waiting lists so that others could register - it was a classy thing to do. The 2nd part is answered below.

So I think that FIRST is and has been quite prepared to weather any economic storm that is currently raging. In my opinion, something doesn’t quite add up here, and I won’t be satisfied until I am presented with a clear, logical and public explanation of FIRST’s actions by a member of the FIRST organization in this forum.

This is a team forum, not a FIRST sponsored forum. The clear, logical, and public explanation of FIRST actions in letting teams add regionals HAS been available ALL ALONG on the FIRST web page. In the future, when so upset with FIRST, maybe you should call or e-mail them directly - it might help satisfy your concerns quicker and you might get correct information/answers if you go to the source. It is also somewhat risky to assume one has a complete understanding of the economy, the finances of an organization (non-profit), and the cost of running a program such as FIRST - things tend to not quite add up when lacking all that information.

The information I have pasted below from the FIRST web page has been there for quite some time. All teams had access to this, FIRST clearly stated the open capacity at all regionals, and that any interested teams should contact FIRST. Team 47 and others just monitored the web page, the status of the capacity at regional events, and contacted FIRST - all things EVERY team could have done and had equal access to. Hopefully this information (on the link below and also pasted below) clears up the issue raised in this thread.

On one other note, I have a great deal of respect for the people who post concerns or make comments about other teams AND do it under their name and team number. A post has much more foundation and respectability to it when it isn’t made annonomously.

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/rgevents.htm

Events Overview and Openings
A summary listing of all event attendance information and openings.

Event Openings

Here is a summary view of the registration status of each event. If you would like to attend an additional regional event, please contact Team Support at FIRST by calling us or emailing.

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*Originally posted by Jason Morrella *
**This is a team forum, not a FIRST sponsored forum. The clear, logical, and public explanation of FIRST actions in letting teams add regionals HAS been available ALL ALONG on the FIRST web page. **

How ironic, one of the spurned teams WENT to that area of the website and LOOKED at the openings, and calling FIRST is EXACTLY what that team that was denied did.

As far as “getting correct answers when going to the source”, I doubt I can completely trust the word of an organization that sets up a message board on Yahoo to answer questions about rules and other FIRST-related issues only to issue completely contradictory rulings a couple weeks after the answers were posted to the board. I think this team is growing weary of going to FIRST and getting explanations only to have FIRST reverse directions later in the season. They know FIRST has it in their power to end all these inconsistencies, they know the people of FIRST are honorable people, but for whatever reason, they don’t see any improvement. In fact, to them, it seems the problem is getting worse.

*Originally posted by Jason Morrella *
** It is also somewhat risky to assume one has a complete understanding of the economy, the finances of an organization (non-profit), and the cost of running a program such as FIRST - things tend to not quite add up when lacking all that information.
**

This isn’t the local food bank we’re talking about here. This is an organization founded by one of the richest entrepreneurs in the world. Mr. Kamen would never lie back and let this program fall because of “tough economic times” - in my opinion, he instantly nullifies all arguments about potential financial hardship for FIRST. Maybe not, maybe he would let his non-profit organization go into the toilet (assuming FIRST would ever be in a position to circle the drain in the first place), but do you REALLY believe that he would let that happen?

*Originally posted by Jason Morrella *
**The information I have pasted below from the FIRST web page has been there for quite some time. All teams had access to this, FIRST clearly stated the open capacity at all regionals, and that any interested teams should contact FIRST. Team 47 and others just monitored the web page, the status of the capacity at regional events, and contacted FIRST - all things EVERY team could have done and had equal access to. Hopefully this information (on the link below and also pasted below) clears up the issue raised in this thread.

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/rgevents.htm

Events Overview and Openings
A summary listing of all event attendance information and openings.

Event Openings

Here is a summary view of the registration status of each event. If you would like to attend an additional regional event, please contact Team Support at FIRST by calling us or emailing. **

Thank you, Jason, for that information. I’m sure many teams who read Chief Delphi were completely unaware that that was on FIRST’s website. But that is one of the main problems, isn’t it? There seems to be an inconsistency in (or even total lack of) communication from FIRST to many of its teams regarding very important issues. What is a more appropriate way to announce that there are regional openings? A blurb on a webpage, or a community-wide announcement to ALL teams? Why are they making us go to THEM for this information? I wonder what Mr. Sparks would have done differently earlier in the season had he known about this website. But here’s the real kicker…

THE TEAM THAT WAS DENIED ENTRY KNEW ABOUT THE PAGE YOU JUST MENTIONED!

SHOCK and AMAZEMENT as a gasp rings out from the crowd In fact, it was that very web page you just mentioned that drove that team to asking FIRST to permit them to register for an additional regional. They saw that there were openings, they called FIRST and politely requested entry, and they were denied. FIRST even had this team’s third registration fee IN THE BANK at the time they requested the third event. Yet the team was rejected. At the end of the season, FIRST’s website STILL shows open slots for the regional they were interested in. So why weren’t those spots ever filled???

*Originally posted by Jason Morrella *
**On one other note, I have a great deal of respect for the people who post concerns or make comments about other teams AND do it under their name and team number. A post has much more foundation and respectability to it when it isn’t made annonomously. **

This is a team-neutral inquiry into the decision making practices of the FIRST organization. As Mr. Sparks helped demonstrate, this issue is NOT isolated to the teams I have been talking about - it affects the ENTIRE team community as a whole. Knowing the team numbers of those who were rejected by FIRST would lend NOTHING to this discussion and would only cause undeserved harm to those who have already been hurt enough by FIRST’s decisions this season.

I am personally not going to continue this thread any further. I’ve presented my case, and it remains to be seen if anything will come of it. In the very least, I hope that some teams have been made more aware of this newest inconsistency in the rules, and I hope they will join the teams that were denied in strongly protesting such inconsistencies when the postseason meetings begin. I thank all of you for your time. I’d like to especially thank Team 47, Chief Delphi for providing us all with such a great forum to express our issues.

Here’s to a truly exciting and entertaining Championship Event in Florida. Good luck to all teams involved!

FIRSTfan

13

I know I am a little late in posting, but I will be raising some questions with FIRST in the Summer.

Team 217, like team 47, registered for 3 regionals because we were unsure of our status at Nationals. When our team number debacle was resolved (see earlier posts), we were specifically asked by Bob Hammond, from FIRST if we would drop one of our Regionals. We dropped West Michigan. What disturbs me is that FIRST did not go to the teams they asked to drop Regionals and have those teams re-register. For 217, it is really a moot point, because we spent our registration money on tattoos, water bottles, flyers, etc. It just would have been a nice gesture from FIRST to teams that were willing to help out.

-Paul

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