I never said it was a question of slickness or roughness - you read that into my question… I can see why you did but it’s not at all what I am questioning.
This is the bit that we fundamentally disagree about:
using multiple layers to make a fabric that wouldn’t be legal on its own more durable
Let’s be clear - we aren’t talking about paper - we are talking about some kind of cloth. Let’s also be clear that we aren’t talking about an infinite number of layers but some amount reasonable to an astute observer.
Please explain to me, using the existing rules, why it would not be legal to use multiple layers of fabric to create a cloth suitable for bumper construction?
So what if a team used a black (or any non-red-or-blue) “durable” fabric under red and blue “fragile” fabrics? IMO that would unquestionably satisfy R29D, because otherwise the fabric would be black. That would also mean the team only has to buy one kind of underneath fabric instead of two.
Then we also get into the question of what defines multiple fabrics. What if you have two fabrics glued together with elmers glue? What if they were bonded together with some fabric bonding agent? What if they were sewn together around the edges? What if they were sewn together through the center of the fabric as well? What if they are sold together as one fabric, but made of different materials? Could a team argue that they really only have one fabric just because they’re connected at the edges around the back of the bumper?
I have, several times. Lets turn this around… why don’t you quote to me the rule that says you can used multiple layers of fabric in order to provide more durability to the bumper?
The absence of a clear rule directing me otherwise.
I want you to stop arguing with me as though I’m a “Discerning and exacting individual” and instead pretend I’m a well mannered student on a well intentioned team at an event and you’ve just told me I need to rip apart my bumpers because my team sat down and thought about how we would solve the problem of a fabric we found wasn’t up to our standards by placing another layer of fabric on our bumpers.
We’ve been up front with you the inspector about what we did to solve the problem… take off that bright green inspector cap and join me as a team member for a moment as all inspectors should do - alleviate me of this burden to prove to you that I haven’t violated the rules and provide me with evidence that I have.
Marshall, I’ve already done that numerous times and have quoted specific rules. I’m sorry if you don’t agree with me, but being condescending in response because you don’t happen to agree with me isn’t a good way to go about it.
R29 says “BUMPERS must be constructed as follows”, and there’s only 1 usage of multiple layers of fabric that is listed. This isn’t like many of the other sections where anything that isn’t disallowed is legal. Bumpers are directed specifically, and the rules are, in my opinion, clear.
I’m not being condescending. Trust me. If I were then I’d have called you out about your superfluous* use of the phrase “in order to” when “to” works just as well and I’d have made a crack about dictionaries.**
I genuinely do not understand how you have arrived at your conclusion (And neither do some of the others in this thread) but you seem intent on it so I guess this is one that is either going to get resolved in a set of Q&A questions or the 2018 rules.
The rule I quoted was R29. It specifically allows soft fasteners to be used to attach the pool noodle to the plywood. Is a layer of fabric wrapped around the pool noodles and attached to the plywood not a soft fastener?
We used masking tape to hold the pool noodles in place to make stapling the sailcloth easier. That would be a paper tape, not a fabric tape.
Duallock is definitely a fastener, it isn’t really hard, and it certainly isn’t fabric.
As regards OP, I expect this is a persistently light gray area:
Light gray because it will most likely be allowed at most events.
Persistently gray because even if you ask Q&A they will almost certainly kick it back to the inspectors.
Curiously, my initial read of OP was that there would be different types of cloth in different parts of the bumper. Other than using the singular for the cloth, I couldn’t find any rules against that.
Which, as we find, isn’t viable as an option because inconsistency between inspectors is the work of the devil. (my brother and I have both inspected at multiple levels , though I haven’t in a few years)
That’s an interesting interpretation of that part of the rule. Knowing the history and discussion here on CD that led to that language, I know that it was added to allow teams to use a reasonable amount of duct tape to hold the noodles in place while they secured their bumper fabric over them.
Trying to apply it to the OP’s idea, however… it starts to fall apart. Fabric, by itself, is not fastener unless knotted, and I don’t think anyone is suggesting you tie the fabric together in the back of the bumper. I could *maybe *see it as a fastener if it’s sewn into a loop and is used to hold things together that way, but I think it’s a small stretch. But, as normally seen on bumpers, it’s fabric that is attached to the bumper with fasteners (bolts, screws, staples, etc), not a fastener itself. After all, you wouldn’t say that a shirt is a fastener, it’s the buttons on front of it that act to fasten things together. So, in most situations, I think that’s where that argument falls apart.
No one said that. I provided it for discussion, and followed it up (the part you didn’t quote) with actual reasoning and interpretation of the rule.
“adhesive backed fabric” covers a lot of things. Duct tape, for example, is composed of three layers - polyethelyne, fabric, and adhesive. Gaff tape, on the other hand, doesn’t have that polyethelyne layer - it’s just fabric and adhesive. It’s also a lot more expensive.
Anyways, I think the background I provided, and you quoted earlier, pretty much answers that second question, doesn’t it?
I disagree, but don’t have the energy to debate this anymore.
To the OP:
We’ve been using multiple layers of fabric for several years. We’ve never been questioned in MI or St Louis. Hopefully Jon doesn’t inspect us in Detroit this year, because I have every intention of doing it again.
Or, you know, ask a clear question on the Q&A (or multiple if needed) until there’s a clear universal answer that resolves the issue. But why take the easy way:rolleyes:
Minimized the quote for brevity. The suggestion that teams need to know the CD background for a rule isn’t supported by the actual rulebook. The rulebook and q&a are the only official sources.
I honestly don’t know what you’re trying to suggest for the adhesive backed fabric question. My suggestion was that teams can already legally use a robust and durable fabric tape underneath their “outer layer” of bumper fabric, so I don’t really see the point of your general interpretation here.
There are plenty of expensive laminate fabrics that are both rugged and smooth (if that’s the intent). I don’t see the point in disallowing teams to layer fabrics to meet the same goal - especially since they can already skirt the rule by making the base layer adhesive backed.