Competitive FRC Culture and Its Impact on Team Experience

A lot of elements go into how teams, and students, experience FIRST. We’ve had a chat about how volunteers, specifically RIs, have an impact on the overall experience. We could likely break down every volunteer role to find examples where things haven’t gone well. In fact, there have been numerous threads about this over the years. With this season being a particularly interesting one having teams with a lot of turnover from their last actual events, it’s a good time to look at how teams impact the experience of those around them. I’m going to share a few anecdotes I’ve experienced over the years in a variety of roles. These anecdotes aren’t representative of the majority. But, we’ve established negative moments tend to last longer and it’s important we consider these kinds of moments that happen when the competitive side takes the lead.

After a particularly close playoff match, the drive coach went to berate their human player for losing the match. As this HP is sheepishly explaining they didn’t get a signal, the coach accepts that response. They turn around, hit the glass to get their driver’s attention, point straight at them, and loudly state “This loss was on you, on you”

In pre-match strategy sessions, I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve seen a conversation that’s essentially “stay out of our way” telling a team to do something away from the primary focus of the game. This was especially bad in the Recycle Rush year. Though, it’s not something unique to that season

I watched a team exploit the benefit of the doubt teams get when taking actions during a game. One of their opponent robots had died in their end game zone. They drove directly into it, made contact, and went back to playing the game. The action was ruled with benefit of the doubt and a foul was called. Oddly enough, it was for contact the opponent robot made with an alliance partner as a result of the bump, not the instigating robot as they were in such a rush to get back to playing they forgot to enter their end game zone to be eligible to draw a penalty. After the pretty obvious attempt to exploit the rule, they went to argue not getting end game points over several matches.

A top-heavy robot was playing defense. This might not have been their best decision. Though, they were a younger team. When they pulled back, their front wheels lifted off the ground and they ended up on top of the bumpers of the robot they were defending. Let’s avoid getting into a debate over who was responsible for them being stuck. They were. The other robot was free to move and could have freed them both. Instead, they saw the referees counting a pin on the defending robot, placed their controls down, and started raising their arm up along with the referee count shouting out “count em up” in their driver station. The only robot that could end the interaction instead made no attempt to play the game and cheered on an extended pin call. This ended up resulting in the other team getting a red card, feeling terrible, and their alliance losing a playoff match by default.

A rather well known team was struggling to connect to the field, regularly. The FTA asked for them to get help and CSAs went to check on them. Upon reaching the pit, they were told by a mentor to “get the f away from our pit.” They hadn’t yet said anything more than “hello” and were there to help ensure the other teams both weren’t sitting and waiting for their matches to start as well as trying to keep things on schedule rather than consistently adding delays to this team’s match.

In one match, a team lost their bumpers and were disabled. The team next to them lost power and weren’t moving. After the match, they chewed out the FTA and FTAA for “disabling” them as well as their partner and demanded a replay. When CSAs followed them to their pit, several adult mentors started by scolding the CSAs the moment they got there for the result of the match and stating their clear expectations of advocating for a replay. The CSA responding couldn’t work with the kids to talk through how to troubleshoot the robot because they were trapped in the crosshair of the mentors. The students quietly went about their post-match activities until they were stopped and asked to bring the battery back. The terminal was loose enough it was evident even though taped. When the tape was removed, the gap was seen and the team was able to start working to correct the issue so they wouldn’t have the same issue in later matches.

After a match in which a team had an inconsistent video feed, they went to ask for a replay and were told they were the only team with that issue so they wanted to troubleshoot before calling it a field problem. Their response was to tell the FTAs “I want to talk to someone from FIRST and someone that knows what they’re talking about.” They had been starving their bandwidth sending excessive console communication and that took priority over their images.

I’m sure we’ve all lost count of how many times coaches have chewed out other teams during matches. This seems to be especially bad when teams bring student coaches to their driver station. We could likely create a thread JUST about these stories.

We all have a role to play in the experience for our teams, other teams, and the volunteer base that show up to these events. It’s often easier to look at how other roles impact the experience. I encourage folks to consider how their actions impact those around them and channel the best of all of us.

38 Likes

This situation reminds me of how fault is determined in a car crash. For example, a car may run a red light and crash into another car. But if the second car had the opportunity to see that other car and to stop thus avoiding the accident, the second car is determined to be at fault even though it did not break the law. The referees should be using this principle in this situation.

14 Likes

I’m an extremely competitive person in both FIRST, and more broadly in life. It’s been a blessing a challenge for me at times. I think many people get caught up in the moment at FRC events because they have so much time and energy invested in the outcome.

What gets lost sometimes in the heat of the moment, is that the outcome that matters is the development of the students involved with the program. I’ve worked hard as a mentor to set an example for the students on my team when bad things happen. I’ve grown a lot as a mentor in thinking about how I’ve personally reacted to situations when I first started mentoring in 2015, and contrasting that with how I handle things in 2022.

We’ve lost Regionals because of horrible decisions made by volunteers. We’ve lost playoff matches because we weren’t allowed on the field for being 12 seconds late after getting pulled aside on our way to the field by a robot inspector who wanted to check if our battery was secure. We lost in the finals in 4 consecutive offseason events, and we could’ve made excuses for all them.

One thing this program is really good at is providing real world opportunities for growth. One of the most satisfying parts of being a mentor in this program is watching the students on your team grow, mature, and learn to handle real world challenges. These moments of adversity are the ultimate teachable moments. and really epitomize what FIRST is all about.

20 Likes

FRC stands for the FIRST Robotics Competition, not the FIRST Robotics Science Fair. There are teams who are just happy to build a robot and to compete. Nothing wrong with that! But there are teams that are very competitive. Sometimes this manifests on the field (“let the scoreboard do the talking”). But unfortunately, it does off the field as well.

I believe that in those 2 minutes and 30 seconds on the field you should play your heart out. No regrets. Give it everything you have. Before and after, be gracious and be professional. I’ll leave this quote about ethics:

33 Likes

There is a rule that allows that to be considered, to a point. G201. I’ve seen that rule invoked maybe twice, and in both cases it was blatantly obvious.

A team was dead in a really bad spot–their opponents’ protected zone, right in front of their opponents’ HP. Said HP started hollering down the field to their drive team and gesturing with “hit them, hit them, hit them!” I don’t recall if that particular rule was invoked amid the flood of zone violations and other stuff going on.

In a different year, a different team was disabled due to bumper issues, in a rather bad spot. Their opponent slammed them into a penalty portion of the field, twice, obviously for the penalty, and booked it for their end game location. The opponent drew the G201 (or whatever number it was that year)–and that particular year it had sharp teeth.


I’ve also seen and heard mentors barking, at their students and other people, to do things a certain way. Like Jeff, I’ve seen this too often to count.

Where’s the Spotlight feature?

I’ve had some bad interactions. I won’t say that I haven’t given any. (I do wish I could say that honestly… but I can’t.) My goal at the event is to show up and help the teams play the game as best they can–I would hope that’s a shared goal, and second only to “creating a good team and individual experience”.

12 Likes

I don’t believe this is a controversial statement. It definitely stands for “Competition” and that in itself isn’t a flaw. I’ve seen it stated in many ways and venues that FIRST uses competition to build students.

The place you and I diverge is here:

Leaving “during” out is problematic. The team experience doesn’t stop during a match. Failing to maintain a gracious and professional demeanor during a match because “everything you have” is greater than everything the other team has doesn’t reflect negatively on them. But, it does harm their experience in a way that YOU have control over.

It’s unfortunate when this manifests on the field, in the pits, in the stands, on CD, etc. It’s not only unfortunate when it’s off the field.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with being competitive. In fact, it’s encouraged. There are healthy and unhealthy ways to do everything for both you and those around you. That holds true for sharing your competitive nature. I love the way Ryan worded it.

20 Likes

Out of all the things you mentioned, this one seems to come up for us from time to time. It can be frustrating and disappointing to our team. I try to remind them to be professional about it, but we’re also there to compete and we can play the game as well.

The competitions are almost always fun. We like the competition aspect of it, even if we’re not going to do well, and even though most years we don’t set goals based on the competition. It’s a chance to partner with, go up against, win with, and lose against some really cool teams and robots and that can be inspiring. But a bad interaction can really sour a whole weekend.

2 Likes

My teams have been on the receiving end of some of the kinds of actions mentioned in this thread, and I like to think we’ve never performed them.

However it is very easy in the heat of the moment to be losing a match and try to pull some fouls from a stationary robot in your protected zone, or to get carried away in a pushing match and tip over another robot who got a little tippy. These things were purposeful because in the moment you thought it would be a good idea, but weren’t necessarily well-thought out or premeditated.

Adult mentors in this program should think through these kinds of situations and discourage them, and keep in mind that sometimes these actions are taken by students, who are still learning and can be easily caught up in the moment.

5 Likes

In the Einstein Finals at Houston in 2017, team 4188 disabled/died in their opponent’s protected zone. The blue alliance wins with 175 penalty points (a tech foul being worth 25 points that year). I bring this up as I want to understand your reasoning. Even in a situation like that, if you were blue, you’d tell your drivers to avoid that red robot? Separate question, if they were not disabled (ie. still driving around, happened to be in there when you were going to get a gear) but still in your protected zone, you’d tell your drivers to avoid them?

To me, that’s a free 25 points. I would not advise a driver to stop playing the game (ie. cycling gears) just so they could rack up penalty points. They would still play the game as they normally would have, but without letting the disabled robot impede them. Don’t go out of your way to get the penalty is another way of putting it.

3 Likes

100% agreed with this.

The penalty is there for a reason, and if the disabled team is genuinely in the way of normal gameplay, then the penalty should be applied, and the team shouldn’t drive any less aggressively than they would otherwise. But repeatedly pulling penalties when you are capable of still playing the game normally is a different story.

22 Likes

As a driver, this discussion has been very valuable to read and try to understand and reflect on my own decision-making process during matches. I really like the point about not going out of your way to draw penalties, but not stopping yourself from playing the game.

Here’s some questions I have (maybe more of hyptotheticals) based on situations I saw in our lone 2020 event.

  1. We built a robot to shoot from the triangular protected zone. What are the ethics of pushing a robot who is blocking your path to that zone into it, drawing a foul and then shooting? (We could only score from there)
  2. A (working) opponent defense robot is in our trench, blocking us from going under the control panel. What are the ethics of driving into them as they are legitimately blocking our path (we struggled to get over the center field bumps)? More importantly, where do you cross the line in this situation? If it is okay to hit them once as it is still a part of normal gameplay, is it a problem if you hit them twice? Three or more? Or maybe just as soon as you’re no longer trying to get them to stop blocking you, but simply playing to draw fouls?

I appreciate any insight from the community, as this thread has already reminded me a lot about the importance of staying present in the nerve-wracking environment of a match.

1 Like

These are both situations where you’re trying to play the game, and someone else is breaking the rules to keep you from doing that. These are situations that the rules are for.

13 Likes

Thanks for the input, that was also how I had interpreted those situations. Perhaps more controversial, what if the robot in my alliances trench or protected shooting zone was disabled? Do we just avoid them every time we cycle, and go through the middle? What are the ethics of “bumping” into them as you cycle? Are you giving the other alliance an advantage by allowing them to block your access to a protected zone (or the only place we can shoot from)?

Not sure why this replyed to lowtorola rather than the OP, but whatever. Message is the same.

We’re seeing another byproduct of the FRC competitive culture. Specifically, the treatment of vendors. The last three years have been horrible for FRC vendors. They support a VERY limited market, and some of the smaller vendors rely almost entirely on the FRC space for their profit. We’ve seen them shut down (Robot Space), and we’ve seen quality issues out of others. Their employees have been laid off, or fired. Those employees are parents, ex team members, and others. (End emotional comments).

These vendors need to be held accountable for their mistakes - but it’s also important to remember that they are human. They make mistakes. The quality issues, shipping problems, lack of product, and trouble communicating aren’t suprising. Multibillion dollar companies do a far worse job of communicating with their customers than the companies and organizations around FIRST.

The frustration is understandable, especially in the heat of the moment. What isn’t understandable is the conduct I’ve been seeing. Chief Delphi isn’t the only avenue available to First teams to communicate, and I’ve seen some truly heinous comments made by people who are attached to FIRST organizations in some way especially in non-official FRC channels.

Even volunteers and contributors of FIRST materials need to hold themselves to higher standards - just like mentors and team members do. Voicing your opinion is one thing - professionally. Continual bad mouthing is neither professional, nor gracious. It doesn’t matter if you’re on an official FRC forum, or Chief Delphi, or an ‘unofficial’ forum. Unrestrained bashing and badmouthing of vendors hurts the community.

I’m sorry to sound so preachy, I really am. But when I see people attached to ‘official’ first groups saying nasty things about vendors (repeatedly), it really rubs me the wrong way. It gives the community at large the wrong idea, the wrong ‘lead’, and contributes to the negativity. That’s not the way professionals act.

To bring this back around to the OP - treating vendors like crap ends up impacting the Team Experience in a huge way. Just think about how you’d react to being verbally abused when there’s some major problem.

19 Likes

If you can’t easily avoid the penalty and still play your game, that’s what the penalties are for.

All of this is a bit gray area, which is why it’s not specifically litigated by the rules, and someone can argue even the most extreme version of these cases, and at some point in my FRC career (see high school me :grimacing: ), I probably did.

But I think the point by wolly_efendi puts it best.

3 Likes

In both situations the defending robot put themselves in a bad positions and that’s on them. Even if they died in one of those situations it’s still their fault for being there and the onus is on them / their alliance captain to know the risk they’re taking being anywhere near protected zones.

With that said it’s still circumstantial. IF a working defending robot became a disabled and got stuck under the control panel I’d be OK if my driver racked up some penalties on them trying to move them (clear the path) for us to cycle. But, if the score is out of hand or it’s clear we’re not going to dislodge the other robot then we’d stop pouring salt in their wound. Clarification is that we wouldn’t drive up the score just because of the situation.

7 Likes

This is also where I sit on this issue. If they died in a bad spot you do deserve to get some penalty points off of them, but you should also be making an attempt to restore the flow of the game. Try and move them to an area that is out of the way so you are able to get back to doing your thing. The only time I could see where racking up a large amount of penalties might be okay is if the dead robot is making it impossible to cycle at all(such as a robot dead under the control panel and you can’t drive over the bars or 2019 they die in front of the rocket and you’ve filled all but the ones they are blocking access to). If you are trying to win your match, do it in a way that you earn your points.

6 Likes

FIRST has nothing really resembling competitive parity, due to the huge range of differing team contexts. Teams range from a handful of students and an overwhelmed teacher to programs with hundreds of students and six-figure budgets. All of these teams interact directly - there is no a priori stratification to match like teams against like.

FIRST is aware of this. It advertises itself as “the only sport where anyone can go pro.” The idea of playing on the same field as the professionals you idolize features heavily in their marketing material, and I think is part of their core vision for the program - it seems unlikely to change any time soon.

This does generate inspiration and goodwill. It’s really neat to “meet your heroes” at competition, and to see so many examples of cool engineering, including things that your team may not be nearly capable of doing. The longtime FIRST tradition of trying to send teams to championships regularly is a big part of this, and I’ll vouch personally for the impact I’ve seen it have in this capacity.

This comes at a cost, though. This quip from an earlier post gets to the heart of the matter:

What FIRST wants to do with the concept of “everyone can go pro” is directly at odds with the competitive balance of their sport. This has always been a difficult tightrope for FIRST to walk, and it has only been exacerbated by FIRST’s grow-at-all-costs model and the lack of any coherent support network for teams to improve their competence.

Many (not all) of the negative experiences I’ve had around competitive dynamics in FIRST have ultimately been the result of this fundamental dissonance in the aims and the nature of the program.

12 Likes

I am less concerned about in-match play strategies that exploit rule loopholes. I am much more concerned about adult interactions with children, both in terms of models to be followed (or not) and the impact of extremely negative interactions. This is the whole reason why the RI thread was a big deal: a minority of interactions with RI’s have been intimidating or worse. If we want to hold RI’s and LRI’s to high standards for keeping kids safe and healthy (as we should), we should also be asking the same of the mentors and coaches who work side-by-side with these same kids all the time. Most of the truly negative experiences students have had in this competition have been caused by the responsible adults in some way or other, including the ones that I caused myself, and which I deeply regret.

54 Likes

Stratification does help in other high school sports. I don’t know how the entire country works, but many states have divisions of some sort based on the size of schools. There are still “haves” and “have nots” in those divisions of course, but it can’t be perfect.

On the one hand something similar in FIRST sounds appealing. On the other hand, neither the mentors nor students (most of the time) on our team treat FRC exactly like a high school sport in the first place. The point of playing on the high school soccer team is to play well enough to win some games. The point of being on a high school robotics team is… well I don’t think it has to be related to winning at all.

But while it doesn’t seem to buy us anything (except avoiding some unpleasant interactions that only happen rarely), it would interesting to try out a “division” like setup for competitions. Would we miss seeing some of the more awesome (better) teams? Or would it be more fun (and just as inspiring) to go up against similar teams as us whether we really want to win or not? I’m not sure I know the answer.

I don’t think I’m following. I don’t think it’s common to equate “everyone can go pro” with “anyone could win a competition,” but maybe I’m wrong. I take it as “with FIRST you can learn some skills to help you go pro” i.e. “anyone can be an engineer,” which is silly in a different way but most slogans are.

6 Likes