Complaints about FRC - my Journey

FIRST General Forum
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As context, this will be my fourth year in FRC, and I will be going off to college next year. Anonymous account so this blog reflects my views only and not those of my entire team.

An overemphasis on diversity causes more seperation in the long run. A seemingly impossible statement, but one becoming ever more true in the FRC world.

If you don’t want to read my personal experience and just skip to my argument, feel fee to gloss over this next paragraph.

Again, I’m a senior this year, and somehow despite all my time and effort poured into FRC I find myself without a leadership position or in charge of any even small part of the team. I’m part of what would be considered a fairly large team, and believe that despite this fact, the things I’ve contributed should definitly atleast allow me to design a Mechanism for this upcoming season. My freshman, sophmore, and part of my junior year, I was completely dedicated to software and coding, creating practically the whole vision system for our team’s bot, and creating the button mapping and commands for pilot and operator. In my junior year I also succeeded in getting into USACO gold (roughly top 500 of US HS coders). Then, I switched over to designing, completed a large part of the onshape training for FRC and in general, participated in a few random CADathons, and got an online internship with a small engineering company as a Mechanical Drafter. I’m not stating this to brag, but rather to show my competence in doing what I do. Despite all this, I didn’t get nominated to my team’s Dean’s List(understandable as only 2 people can get it), but what’s less understandable is not getting one of the 10 main leadership positions(excluding drive team), for controls and mechanisms. Meanwhile, where I’m especially mad is sophmores with much less expereince getting positions over me, considering the amount of time I poured into FRC both to fuel my passion for engineering and for college applications. It’s looking ever more likely that my dream schools are slipping right out of my grasp and there’s nothing I can do but just stand in the sidelines and watch.

Now, how does this link back into diversity? Let’s look at some teams and facts(courtesy friends from other teams I’ve made)

  • A team where the driver is a girl every single year for the past decade (besides two years where there were no girls)
  • A team with 3 developmental teams where the leadership is all girl for all 4 teams
  • Where there’s events specifically catered to being girls only
  • Teams where girls are given priority for tasks and opportunities are first handed out to them (i.e. whenever there’s smth to do, the girls are asked first)
  • Teams where recruitment is specifically targetted towards girl, with team members claiming that guys will just naturally join regardless
  • Back to me, where my fellow female teammates with less dedication and experience get the roles over me, and where the mentors specifically help them out over me, e.g. when I have a question it goes roughly unanswered until theirs are resolved

This seems to only be an issue in larger teams due to the fact that they are often not lacking in female membership or in marketing out their existence, so I would appreciate if no one answered saying “but the vast majority of people in FRC are guys”, because that A. doesn’t take in the leadership, or B. that robotics in small schools vastly tend to be 90% guys, and dont have the same marketing to attract different people.

Ultimately, I believe coaches in larger teams are over prioritizing girls in the team at the expense of probably the team itself, choosing people merely for the sake of their appearance rather than their skills or experience. Feel free to disagree with me and change my mind, but at the end of the day the hours I spent each week in robotics is just going to amount to nothing.

DISCLAIMER: What I’m doing here is simply pointing out an issue from as objective of a standpoint as I can, not taking away from any achievements of my fellow teammates or women in STEM in general.

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Buddy, I am so glad you posted this, because this thread is going to turn into one GIANT learning opportunity for you.

I recommend to the posters to keep in mind that we’re here to help people with these kinds of perspectives and to not make it personal. We grow students, let’s keep things growth focused.

I recommend for you, OP, to take what is posted in response to this with an open mind and consider that there may be more to some aspects of the world than you may have been exposed to so far. It’s not your fault, but you’re here and the good people of this website are going to share different perspectives with you. These people are pretty smart, I recommend you listen to what they have to say and try not to take things personally.

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Lol I’m your opposite

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I’m not going to jump into any of the other points you make(I’m prob not qualified), but hats off for making USACO gold! I’m trying to get into USACO this year, and even as my team’s lead coder it’s definetly not a trivial task(for reference, i’m only at bronze rn lmao). I feel like you’re definetly qualified for being a code lead for the team(speaking from experience, usaco is wayy harder than FRC fs).

Now, whether or not you’re qualified vs. unqualified isn’t the only thing that gets you leadership. There’s often a lot of politics involved and representing yourself as well; in addition, your team is pretty big(as you said), so people who get positions are often going to hold onto them for a while. Don’t feel bad if you didn’t necessarily become the lead of the hardware or software or electrical or any of that(in fact, USACO gold is enough for you to get into top colleges anyways).

I will say though that despite there being girls-only competitions and that, I think that the behavior of the mentors on your team isn’t sexism or any of that; its probably just a misunderstanding. So make sure you talk w/ your mentors/coaches about how you feel.

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It sounds like you’re most focused on the college application part of a leadership role, and tbh, that’s not the mentality most people want in a leader. Leadership isn’t a means to an end; it’s a genuine responsibility, and it requires genuine passion, both in the team, and in improving it, not simply the raw technical skills.

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Sure, I’ll throw in my 2 cents.

So you learned nothing from your time on the team? You don’t think you gained any valuable skills, both technically and inter-personally?

Here’s several true things I’ve learned since graduating high school.

  • The name of the undergraduate institution you attend matters way less than you think at this point. If you stay interested in programming extracurricularly, you will stay ahead of the curve in whatever CS program you end up at. If you don’t get into your top school, it will just be that much easier to stand out where you do end up. I think it balances out.
  • You don’t need a title to be a leader. FRC is exceptional at demonstrating this. If you have initiative, (design a mechanism, make your case for a strategy, document well and have good ideas), people will listen.
  • FRC leadership is a really inefficient college app point. I have no admissions experience, but I think the difference between “president” or “deans list semi-finalist” or “member” of an FRC team are pretty small on a resume. I also think they’re very comparable to many other clubs/organizations that require quite a bit less hours and effort. Leverage your experience on the team in interviews and essays, with specific anecdotes that show your initiative and passion for STEM.
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I’m sorry to hear about your negative experience going into your senior year in FRC. I think the good news is that there’s still time and opportunity to address the issue with your mentors. Definitely request some time to meet with your team’s mentors or coaches to understand how the leadership selections were made and what they’re wanting to see from you in that area. Also, there likely critical ways for you to contribute even if you do not currently have a leadership title.

It sounds like you’ve contributed quite a bit on the technical side to your team. Depending on how your team operates, that might not translate directly to a leadership role. Usually it is not the same as Dean’s List nomination either (which is about leadership in increasing community awareness about FIRST as well as technical accomplishments). Obviously, no one here but you knows specifics, but knowing what your team process for leadership identification and selection may help you see a way to make a different type of impact on your team this year.

Since you mentioned it - and I know this is a stressful time in the college process - a leadership title likely won’t be the benefit you imagine it to be in college applications. Focus on what you can say about your accomplishments, contributions to the team, and what you’ve learned. Just like how those details make a difference in your resume for a job or internship, the details matter here too. I really think that college admission is different than robotics leadership selection, so don’t assume that things not going your way in one will mean anything for the other.

Okay, so on to the topic about diversity. I will say that as an FRC head coach for a decade now, I work to recruit girls to the technical side of my team. I also try to recruit people who don’t see themselves as STEM students. I think that diversity of perspectives and experience tends to improve team quality and competitiveness. However, I still have a responsibility to mentor and coach ALL the students on my team to the best of my ability. I don’t see this as a zero sum game. It doesn’t have to be.

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You can do this… Make it yourself in CAD if your team won’t use it post it to CD and teams here who are stumped would like the freebie I bet. Nothing prevents you from designing your own bot for fun even. I’d love if my students did this.

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Where to even begin. First, if you think you are being treated unfairly on your team, you need to discuss that with your mentors. Make sure to do it in a factual, mature way so you don’t come across as a jealous, petulant child. If the mentors would kick you off for respectfully asking a question, your team has a lot of problems that can’t be solved here.

Second, I hope that you will take some time someday to learn about girls and women in STEM. This page would be a good start for you: The STEM Gap: Women and Girls in Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics – AAUW : Empowering Women Since 1881 I also hope that you are able to talk to women in STEM roles and learn their experiences. I guarantee you it hasn’t been easy.

We, as a society, should be encouraging more girls to explore STEM. If that means that there need to be additional programs geared toward them, that’s ok. When 99% of FRC teams are 50% boys and 50% girls, it might make people more open to hearing your complaint that girls are favored.

I think you should also take a deep look at yourself because maybe there are legitimate reasons you have been passed by for a leadership role that have nothing to do with you being a boy. Would your teammates say that you’re a good team player? Do you take time to teach things to the newer kids? Are you kind and respectful? Listen to other’s ideas? Or do you regularly remind everyone about how much you’ve done for the team?

Also, a college is not going to reject you solely because you didn’t have a leadership role on your robotics team.

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Yea fair point, however I’m just saying that’s part of it, what spills over at the end of the day. I’ve been able to explain my process and consistently show what I’ve been doing across both controls and mechanisms, I do my best to help out other teams with code issues at actual events, I’m sorry I phrased that in a way that made me sound like I only care about college applications. I still beleive raw techincal skills are very valuable?, like especially for just the coding and designing as long as you’re able to get the task done and properly explain it to people it shouldn’t matter your social skills or smth.

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Ok, my apologies, I misphrased things in terms of me just being frustrated. I’ve certianly learned a lot about team mechianics, made a bunch of friends in the team and outside the team, and learned how real life engineering and coding looks like, giving me probably more experience than internships. The issue is, attending a local school is so much more different than going to my dream school with some professors I’ve already met in the past (like Danny Mittal and Richard Peng), and pursuing my dream. You really cant just do the same or learn as much with like a community college nearby. I appreciate your other points though, I’ll keep that in mind, thanks!

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The skills are very important, and your accolades are incredibly impressive, but, and I’m going to be frank, leadership isn’t something you get by doing a laundry list of things, it requires a genuine passion, and most of all, the ability to organize people in an effective manner. You can’t just have a list of accolades that you think make you deserving of a leadership role; fundamentally its the ability to communicate and organize that makes a good leader, not raw skills.

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Yea, you make several really good points I’ll think about. However, I believe that I shouldn’t need to beg for a leadership position, I think if they don’t think I deserve it I’m not going to go after them, however I’ll definitly continue contributing to my team. Yea I realize that I spent too much time being self engaged in work and self improvement when I could’ve been helping others and spreading awareness, but I didn’t think that’d be a game changer. I was originally planning about writing my essay over the joy I found in FRC, but then I thought that now it’s kinda worthless? cuz I dont really have anythng to show for it. Yea, so ultimately I really hope college admissions are fine. Yea, I absolutely agree its really important to recruit poeple who dont see themsleves as STEM students, but I dont think it’s right to prioritize a certian group of people over another, if that kinda makes sense. The issue again is that my team is not lacking in terms of diversity and yet we keep prioritizing it over everything else. Another example would just be on our lab’s front door, we have three pictures posted, two are of only girls, and one is of a team picture, which I think really undermines the contribution guys make. Thanks for being such a good mentor to your students and taking the time to reply!

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There’s a wide range of universities between community college and Carnegie Mellon.
Apply to a wide range, including state schools, and give yourself options.

Generally, working closely with specific professors is something you can really set out to do in graduate school. So keep that drive going, but don’t fret about it not coming to fruition for a few years.

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I’ll consider starting to do it. As a natural C++ coder I was thinking of doing some Cpp documentation for heavily Java coded things in the past.

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Your life isn’t over if you don’t get into a specific school or even set of schools. I know (Recent) FRC alum who live paycheck to paycheck, and those who got into Harvard. They both had leadership positions on their teams. And as an aside, both of them are girls. You’re going to be fine. I know how stressful right now is, but I assure you, enjoying the ride is going to be a much better use of your time. Senior year is going to be fun IF you allow it to be, make the most of it. You are going to get into somewhere, and I assure you, you will enjoy your time there. I know more FRC alum that went to state schools and community colleges than the flashy big name colleges, if at all.

TL;DR: What (if any) college you get into doesn’t really matter, your life will go on and you will be fine no matter what happens.

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Why is having girls in leadership positions mean that your team is “overfocusing” on diversity? Maybe they are just the best person for the job…

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Ya so it’s really cool that you talk about STEM gaps, and I absolutely agree there is, but people are doing too much to combat it. I do both competitive math and coding, where the resources are evenly spread, both competitions happen online so there’s no restrictions, and yet the first placement you find for girls is outside the top 200. As a result, people made seperate olympiads for girls which is really fair, however they forced it so that for the competitive camps, girls had to make up 50% of the camp, which I believe is doing far too much as it takes away opportunites from people who are way more technically skilled but were just born the wrong gender. I believe most of my teammates, or atleast those I work with a lot, would say I contribute and am willing to help out if they need it, however I will admit I tned to turtle myself into my own wokr and dont seek out to actively help people. THe issue with colleges is that it often just comes down to the wire for these competitive schools, some one small thing that makes the game changer. So many other guys are good at USACO and have made USAMO which is why robotics would be a game changer.

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This is the big part; to be a leader, you need to convince people you’d lead them well; you need a genuine passion to do this. Doing things “for that leadership role” wont get you it. Part of convincing people to let you lead them is a genuine willingness to help and teach.

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Because the exact opposite happens when all guys are in the leadership positions. People then push for more diversity and inclusivity. The girls definitly might be the correct person for the job, however, I’m just pointing out the double standards that happen here, and that objectively speaking hte chances that all the best people on the team just happen to be girls is very low.