CRio and Jag Discount Purchase Yet?

Sorry if this has been discussed…didn’t find it.

Any word on if/when the CRio is being offered yet for pre-season discount purchase ($750) by FRC teams? May be common knowledge but I am not finding it. Hoping that was not just a one-time thing in the 2010 pre-season.

Same question on Jags from TI or Digi-Key. Seems like last year they did not roll out the discount until closer to kick-off. We bought early and paid too much.

From http://decibel.ni.com/content/community/first/frc?view=overview#/?tagSet=undefined

Once per competition season, your team is eligible for an entire additional cRIO-FRC kit (part number 780405-01) at the discount price of $750. Call 1-866-511-6285 to check eligibility!

Holy cow. Of course I have been to that page but did not see the CRio info. Thanks for helping the blind.

Still open to Jag discount info.

Start here…

http://www.luminarymicro.com/jaguar

There’s a 2010 Discount Link To… http://sales.digikey.com/dkes/FirstRoboticsCompetition.asp

HOWEVER, It has been discontinued. If things remain as they have the last 2 seasons, it will be restarted again sometime after kickoff.

Does anyone know when this resets? Our team purchased a new cRIO sometime after the competition season last year, which I assume would count as our “2010 Cheap cRIO”. When are we eligible to purchase our “2011 Cheap cRIO”?

This page http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/206678 says: “If this is the first purchase of a backup system this calendar year the price with be $750.” So I would say once per calendar year.

Remember that, in past years, items purchased before kickoff have been disallowed. I know that past years’ rules have no bearing on current year’s rules, but this one seems pretty consistent (and Bill has alluded to it often in his blog).

IIRC the rule is anything built or designed before kickoff cannot be used. If I have a 5 x 5 sheet of lexan we didn’t use last year it is fair game as long as it is still available and I put market price on the BOM.

edit:Isn’t Bill also telling us to buy pool noodles before kickoff?

That is correct, given you don’t put the entire 5x5 sheet on the robot without modifications. I’d wager you’ll probably cut it and drill it in some fashion, so it’s not the same material you started with.
The cRIO, on the other hand, probably won’t be physically altered.

If we buy two AM toughboxes, assemble one tomorrow and leave the other in the box, only the unassembled one would be legal for the future game UNLESS we alter the assembled toughbox in some way after kickoff.

it’s time for all of us to start thinking about quoting rules when referring to them, to ensure we don’t give people wrong information.

From the 2010 rulebook, here are what I believe are all of the applicable rules:

<R24> Individual COMPONENTS or MECHANISMS retrieved from previous ROBOTS and used on 2010 ROBOTS must have their undepreciated cost included in the 2010 ROBOT cost accounting, and applied to the overall cost limits.

Prior to the Kick-off: Before the formal start of the Robot Build Season, teams are encouraged to think as much as they please about their ROBOTS. They may develop prototypes, create proof-of-concept models, and conduct design exercises. Teams may gather all the raw stock materials and COTS COMPONENTS they want. But absolutely no final design, fabrication, or assembly of any elements intended for the final ROBOT is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation.
 Example: A TEAM designs and builds a two-speed shifting transmission during the fall as a training exercise. When designing their competition ROBOT, they utilize all the design principles they learned. To optimize the transmission design for their ROBOT, they improve the transmission gear ratios and reduce the size, and build two new transmissions, and place them on the ROBOT. All parts of this process are permitted activities.
 Example: The same TEAM realizes that the transmission designed and built in the fall perfectly fits their need for a transmission to drive the ROBOT arm. They build an exact copy of the transmission from the original design plans, and bolt it to the ROBOT. This would be prohibited, as the transmission – although fabricated during the competition season – was built from detailed designs developed prior to kick-off.
 Example: A TEAM developed an omni-directional drive system for the 2008 competition. Over the summer of 2009 they refined and improved the control software (written in C) to add more precision and capabilities. They decided to use a similar system for the 2010 competition. They copied large sections of unmodified code over into the control software of the new ROBOT (also written in C). This would be a violation of the schedule constraint, and would not be allowed.
 Example: The same TEAM decides to use the LabView as their software environment for 2010. Following kickoff, they use the previously-developed C code as a reference for the algorithms and calculations required to implement their omni-directional control solution. Because they developed new LabView code as they ported over their algorithms, this would be permitted.
 Example: A different team develops a similar solution during the fall, and plans to use the developed software on their competition ROBOT. After completing the software, they post it in a generally accessible public forum and make the code available to all teams. Because they have made their software generally available, under the terms of Rule it is considered COTS software and they can use it on their ROBOT.

COTS items from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions or COTS items that are no longer commercially available may be used under the following conditions:
A. The item must be functionally equivalent to the original condition as delivered from the VENDOR (e.g. a part that has non-functional label markings added would be permitted, but a part that has device-specific mounting holes added would be prohibited), and
B. The item must satisfy ALL applicable 2010 FRC materials/parts use rules.

So, clearly states you can purchase anything you want, you just can’t assemble it (if we’re using toughboxes as an example). Likewise, you can’t use any unaltered designs from the off season unless you’ve published them for the rest of the community to use, and you can’t pre-fabricate parts. a 5x5 sheet of aluminum can be used on the robot unaltered if purchased before the build season - you didn’t assemble, fabricate, or design the part. It’s a standard COTS part that was unmodified.

Now, what about R24 and R33? The way I read these rules, when taken all together, is that previously assembled items, like toughboxes can still be used… carefully. If you take a toughbox off of last years robot, disassemble it (thus it’s now functionally equivalent to the original condition as received from the vendor), and reassemble it, you should meet both the letter and intent of the rules. You’ve gained the experience of assembling the gear box without actually having to spend extra money on a new one (money that is getting pretty tight with the current economy). The one caveat to all this is if you modified the gearbox in some way, such as drilling extra mounting holes.

As to how this all applies to the OP… under normal use, there really is no assembly for a cRio or Jaguar, and no issue at all with obtaining or using them prior to the season. In fact, the rookie versus veteran KoP encourages this type of reuse for certain parts.

It appears that the jaguar discount is available again. I did not try to order with it, however.

I don’t want to sabotage the thread BUT …

I’m proud of the fact that I teach my students ethics and core values. We never take a win at all costs approach. They learn to like the “man in the mirror”.

That being said, help me with the rules. For the fist time, our team has entered the world of CNC programming. Our off season centered around learning the machine and program. We got as far as creating geometry to make our own gear boxes on our cnc mill. We were inspired by AndyMark and their new Toughbox Nano Tube when we saw it at IRI.

Reading the rules, it sounds like we can not use any of the program we created. Do you agree? That’ll be sad but we’ll live with it. Because we were teaching ourselves, we invested about 60 hours of work. At least the second time will be shorter.

Ideas? Suggestions?

I would have never thought that using a design you created before kickoff was illegal, because I always thought it was the actual parts. A lot of teams re-build the same e.g. chassis each year, which is equivalent in my mind.

I’d be surprised if the GDC would say that it is illegal, but now that you bring it up I’d be interested in hearing others’ thoughts.

Have you posted this question to the GDC Q&A forum ? That’s where you could get an official definitive answer. Although they might not be responding until Kickoff.

**

Per the rules,
You may not reuse the program or a design that you have produced in off season directly. You may however use that design as a reference to create and new design and program to create the part that will go on the robot.

If the design is available publicly(toughBox nanos) you may use the design directly, but you have to reprogram the CNC during the new season.

This has been the implemented ruling in 2007-2010 that I am aware of and I highly doubt that it will change.

Regards,
Borna

Everyone is wrong!

The correct answer is “we don’t know”. The 2011 rules have not been released yet. :rolleyes:

I certainly appreciate this answer… HOWEVER… it is not quite as simple as that…
How can the rules that are posted on January 8th 2011 be used for actions that would take place before January 8th? (ie purchasing a cRio on January 1st or using the Discount to purchase extra Jaguars pre-season)

We can only look to the rules as they were used in the past. I guess you can say that we are taking a risk that they will come up with some new rule that precludes these purchases but I believe that this would be incredibly short sighted by the GDC and they are not short sighted.

The Kit of Parts has been released (at least part of it…) It includes these items… so we don’t have to worry that they won’t be allowed.

I believe that if the GDC were going to make a change of this sort that they would have warned us.
I believe it is fairly safe to assume that for these types of parts that purchasing in advance would be fine.

As far as the other issues of design and parts use… (not these items) That is a matter for further discussion…

I believe that this is an interesting dilemma that I am sure others have pondered before. I’m going to repost the question in a new thread to get viewpoints from others.

As far as asking in G&A. I think I’ll wait awhile. I’d like to hear from my peers first. Frankly, I already think I know what is right for us to do. But it makes for interesting conversation. Don’t ya’ think? Feel free to look and follow the new post if interested.

For those of you who plan on ordering a new cRio this year, you can check the status of your order at:

www.ni.com/status

Trying to Help