In football they have 20 cameras covering every play and very expensive production equipment. Do you want your entry fee to double?
We have to rely on humans and humans aren’t perfect. We just need to suck up our GP and go on.
All-in-all I think the refs do an amazing job under pretty intense and stressful situation. I’m glad so many hard working people give up their vacation days and come help us play our game.
We recieved ramming penalties for defense much less rough than that… The reffing was not consistent this year.
I agree as well.
The tube should have counted since once the arm broke off it is considered part of the field. I use a 50 question test on rules before a 121 driver can touch joysticks. From the 4 competitions I’ve seen this year, the rules need to simpler and enforced.
I can see that this thread is quickly going down hill. I am closing the thread till tomorrow morning so that cooler heads will prevail. When re opened please think about what and how you are saying it.
I have re opened by request. Please remember that we are here to discuss facts, not to slam teams or refs. They are volunteers.
I was on the field for that match, and would like to offer my perspective.
1114’s arm was clearly bending back, as you can see in the video, and speaking as a defensive driver, when you are pinning someone against the rack, you can generally clearly see their arm and whether or not it is flexing/at the point of breaking. Regardless of whether or not they saw the arm flexing, it was still an excessive use of force. Excessive force is a DQ. There was no DQ.
What I found most despicable was the celebration of 48 after 1114’s arm snapped off. You can’t see it in the video, but it was clearly seen by several eyewitnesses, myself included. This is entirely against everything that I’ve ever been taught in the years that I have been in first. I know, I know, compete on the field and cooperate off the field, but celebrating when your opponents arm comes off - clearly using excessive force - that goes beyond “competing” and into “willful destruction,” which was not a part of the gracious professionalism that I was taught.
Myself and several other people witnessed 48 trying to break 1114’s arm off in Toronto. They then went through the pits bragging about their defense on 1114. They also played defense on 1114 during practice matches both at GTR and Championships, which was clearly witnessed.
As to the “design flaw,” in the video, you can clearly see 1114’s arm moving the 330 pound + friction rack. In all of the events I was at this year (Waterloo, GTR and Championships), I never saw anyone else move the rack. (Edit: never saw anyone else’s arm spin the rack in a circle while attached to a spider leg). Ever. Their arm spun the rack before snapping off. I have not seen the design myself, however, this is in my mind irrefutable proof of the solid design I know that 1114 would produce.
Why should Defensive based bots not be able to practice what they are designed for? Yes i agree to some extent, but the intent of practice is just that, practice. They have just as much of a right to play as their robot is made to do as any other robot.
I will agree with you on some what of a front that excessive D shouldn’t be played in practice matches. I see that there are two matches for practice, in one match play D on any team as possible, as much as possible. Maybe match two plays less D and roam around the other end of the field and test new ideas?
In the end, i don’t care if you have a purely Offense robot or purely Defense robot; they both have the right to practice what their robot’s capabilities are.
Thanks Steve W. for keeping an eye on this thread - much apprciated.
Everyone - keep this one civil and relavent to the thread topic.
Discuss what happened in an appropriate manner.
I didn’t witness it, as I was over at Archimedes at the time.
Carry on
There’s another thread to discuss defense in practice matches. Let’s leave this thread to talk about the direct issues and facts surrounding SF1.3. Thanks.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=608676&highlight=defense+practice#post608676
I will not state my opinion on that (Curie Semifinal 1 - 3) particular match. but in regards to defense in a practice match: I think its is a good practice for teams to inform and request the other teams that they will be defending prior to a practice match. I know that my team 1504 did just that when we played defense in a practice match at nationals.
I’m sorry, I’ve been too busy collecting facts and personal statements from independent sources to really digest the rest of this thread prior to this post. I will leave the replies to those posts to honest people who feel the need to provide factual evidence on this extremely unfortunate situation. One would hope and pray that rumor-mongerers and piler-oners would stay away from this. Some would truly appreciate this gesture of doing and saying nothing.
The following was sent to me from our pit mentor, Donnell, who is notorious for remaining in the pit during elimination rounds due to some strange superstition. I know this doesn’t answer all the questions I’m sure are swimming around inside all your little heads right about now, but perhaps this is a good start at finding out the truth about all of this?
“After the robot came back to the pits (after the Curie Finals) I went to congratulate Johnny (Pasco) and he was visibly upset and shaken. I thought he was just exhausted from all the excitement, as his face was red and he had his head down on his arms leaning on the “War Wagon”. I put my arm around him and congratulated him on a great season. He just lifted his head up and stared into space and shrugged. I told him to hold his head up because he had a great season as a new driver (winning a regional) and didn’t do any worse in Atlanta than we did last year. He just said, “Yeah, but I broke their arm.” I asked, whose arm, and he said 1114. This is the first I had heard about the whole incident. I was surprised that this specific incident was bothering him that much considering it was a whole tier of the Curie Finals prior to what he had just completed. Not knowing the severity of the incident, I just told him not to worry about it because everybody’s robot gets damaged, especially in the Championship Finals. Pasco said, “No, you don’t understand, their arm just snapped in half - I didn’t mean to do it and I wasn’t trying to do it, I didn’t know what happened until it broke.” …….he stopped short and said that he didn’t want to talk about it anymore, he didn’t know what to do……then he walked away.”
…
if you watch the video until the end, you will notice, that if there were 3 more seconds given on the field, we wouldn’t be talking about this, instead we would be talking about how great of a team 1114 is, facing all that adversity and still able to lift MARS up.
How close they came was almost amazing, it just goes to show HOW GREAT 1114 really was.
also I wanted to know this, im trying to figure this out, but i couldn’t find it anywhere, if that ringer that wasn’t scored, if that counted, what would have been the final score, that also goes for the 469 descored ringer.
TIA
Here is my prospective of the match. I was the human player on 1732.
I didn’t even know 1114 broke thier arm until after the eliminations when someone from my team told me. While I wasn’t specifically watching 48 and 1114, I wouldn’t assume that 48 knew that they were about to break 1114 arm. As most of you probably know, its very hard to see whats going on on the other side of the rack.
I also heard or saw no celebrating from 48 after 1114’s arm broke. Standing right next to them during the match and after the match, they didn’t say any thing about breaking thier arm. They also showed great gracious professionalism throughout the eliminations, also. After we got eliminated by the 2nd seeded alliance in the finals, 48’s coach reminded the whole alliance to shake hands with the other alliance and congradulate them. I would be suprised if they did celebrate breaking thier arm in anyway. However, if they did intentially break or celebrate the breaking of the arm, that’s awful and shouldn’t be tolerated. If that is the case, I would like to apologize to 1114 and the rest of thier alliance.
It’s one of those things you hate to see happen, especially in the elimination rounds. As it has been stated before, we shouldn’t jump to conclusions or start rumors that are not true.
I was down on the field watching that match with Koko Ed, Joel J. and Travis Hoffman from team 48. This is what I have to say after spending some time with the drive team of 1114.
I don’t want to be yelled at if I was a coach and I went down there with my driveteam to seek for answers to “Why isn’t the ringer scored,” or “How were the calls made?”
After our machine (that we put our whole heart into for 6 weeks) breaks, I don’t want to be questioned about the quality of my robot.
I believe everyone was watching the finals on einstein. Please make the playing field leveled.
In my 6 years of involvement in FIRST, this is the first time there were many complains and mistakes. There has to be something done so the kids can enjoy/play the game without having to go back in their pit and cry.
Im not going to touch on the unfortunate incident during sf 1-3, i really can’t word it any better than Travis did. However the issue about Canada has me disturbed:
48 was not trying to break 1114’s arm of in Toronto, nor were we trying to break it off in Atlanta. In Toronto we played defense against 1114, in our opinion they were the strongest offensive robot there, so to play effective defense against such a strong team is something to be proud of. We were proud of playing effective D on 1114 because they were so strong, not because we wanted to break them, it is not, and has never been our intention to break any robot that we are on the field against.
Now, you can accept that as the truth, or you can continue believing that we set out with the sole intent of breaking 1114, who up until this incident we were proud to call close friends. I only hope that in the future we can call them friends again.
I’ve taken some time to calm down, and now I’m ready to post some facts. I’ll leave my opinions out of this, because they’re clearly clouded by my emotions. PM me if you want to hear my rambles.
Fact: Team 48 had been posting on CD numerous times about the virtues of defense. You can search for these posts. Not a big deal, since defense is part of the game. Until you put into the context of this match.
Fact: Team 48 “joked” about wanting to play defense on 1114, whille being their partner, so that they could “show off their defense”
Fact: Team 48 nearly ripped 1114’s arm off in a qualifying match at the Toronto Regional. They backed away, allowing 1114 to proceed, and score an additional 3 tubes. A mentor from 48 then said (paraphrasing from memory) “If we weren’t so concerned about your arm, we could have completely shut you down that match”
Fact: Members of Team 48’s driveteam, led by the Drive Coach, celebrated when 1114’s arm snapped off. This was witnessed by myself, and numerous members of other teams. If I hadn’t seen this with my own eyes, I would not believe it myself.
Fact: After the arm snapped off, 48 stopped playing defense on 1114, making it seem like they knew what had happened
Fact: Multiple Team 48 members told members of 1114 to “look out, we’re coming after you” prior to the matchup. Normally we would just assume that meant they were going to defend us. In the context of the match, my feelings are now different.
Fact: Team 48 was booed by a large section of the Curie stands (1114 was not part of this group) when they were announced for their next match. I have never seen this at FIRST event before, and I think it says a lot about how upset people were about this incident.
Fact: 48 pinned 1114 for 34 seconds, without backing up by 3 feet for 3 seconds.
Fact: The head referee was not aware of the 3 feet for 3 seconds rule. Even though this was discussed at the driver’s meeting. She actually had to look it up at the scorer’s table.
Fact: The head referee said “how do I know your arm was any good”, to our Coach and Driver
Those are the facts about many of the situations that have been disputed.
I don’t want the ugly incident of this match to take away from the great play of Teams 67 and 1732. Both teams had amazing robots, and displayed a huge amount of class. Members of both teams actually apologized to us about the actions of team 48. This impressed me, and helped me remember why I do FIRST. Then again, I should have expected nothing less from a classy organization like the HOT team.
I’d like to personally thank every team and individual who came to us to express their concern and sympathies about the incident. Having the support of all of you helped our team’s emotional psyche.
I was watching the Curie matches. I think that it’s horrible what happened to 1114. My team built a similar robot (well, similar in the sense that we tried to integrate ramps and an arm). To save weight and ramp space we made a “clock arm”. Here’s my story and my perspective on this:
http://rassi.ath.cx/stuypulse/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=Week-1&id=Tom10
We had a tower on our chassis and a light aluminum tube cantilevered out on a single shaft. Now, we thought this was the coolest thing ever. It ramped, it picked up tubes, it scored… but we got to our first regional at Trenton and two things happened: 1. we had a practice match against a robot with no arm which was purely defensive and they pushed us into the rack and continued pushing even when it was clear that our arm was entangled. 2. when we got our match lists we realized that due to the algorithm, we were going to face that same team every single match. When we talked to them about being aggressive, they told us that their only strategy was defense. And it’s true. What could they do but block and push? You can’t do it perfectly your first match, and so they continued playing D on us, but improved match after match, keeping away from illegal moves.
So here’s my analysis: you can’t blame defense bots. That was a viable strategy this year for those that couldn’t design in an arm. There’s clearly a reason that bumpers have been written into the guidelines. After our arm snapped off and we disassembled it, all we could do during matches was play defense ourselves, and if anyone’s ever driven, you know how hard it can be to push someone out of the way but not too hard. Sometimes you can’t back out, sometimes you’re stuck. Sometimes it’s true, you get caught up in the moment–especially when the heat is on like it is at the championship. Can you imagine the pressure to look good?
The bottom line is: nobody comes to a regional intending to completely wreck someone else’s six weeks of hard work. Nobody. Whatever the refs say is up to them, and being sore about it now is useless. 48 had a strategy and did what they had to do. They seem to have felt really bad about it and still do. 1114 worked really hard, but you know what? Everybody knows how great their robot is, and they’ll get plenty more shots at Einstein in the future. It appears to be bad luck to me, for both teams, but it’s not the end of the world and I don’t think it’s worth hating anyone for.
I can confirm Karthik’s facts as I was 5.5ft away from the field.
This thread should be moved to the Moderated section…
the rules in pretty much ALL the regionals that I saw and been too, had LAXED refereeing. Our arm broke in the finals in the NJ regional while it was clearly stuck in the rack and we received constant ramming also while in that predicament.
It was the nature of the game and how the regionals unfolded, EVEN THOUGH, the rules at the beginning of January stated, you cant do that and you may be disqualified.
Im just saying, we are not going to complain about it anymore and it is the nature of what happened in some tough hard fought competition.
What a shame, but it just happened.
I think this just might be the saddest day of my life since I joined FIRST.
Karthik, I’m not going to respond to anything stated above, as no one would believe me anyway.
Everyone, we have all made regrettable mistakes since last Saturday, on both 48 and 1114, and perhaps beyond, and I hope one day we can all look back at this, still as friends, and wonder how we all allowed ourselves to get to this point.
I’m sorry for not being perfect.
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Perhaps for the sake of progress, for now we could focus on discussing the execution of the match administration by the referees and the subsequent conversations between them and all upset parties? It seems some things were said/done that really hurt the feelings of people when it really wasn’t necessary. I really do not like picking on these volunteers, who are under a great deal of pressure (and it seems NO ONE wants to ever believe me when I say that), but it seems like there was enough inconsistency in applying the rules from field to field to warrant further discussion regarding what went down in the Curie elims. Hopefully, this will help 1114 get some of the answers they deserve to hear. I will save further Team 48-centric comments for when I feel it is more appropriate…i.e. any time that isn’t right now, once I’ve examined the events in more detail. There are just too many unknowns for me to make a statement one way or the other.
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