cycles not starting

all day today i have noticed that cycles are slow to start. in match 66 at Alamo 118 scored a ball and drove across the field to the human in bounder you could see the human player gesturing to the ref to start the cycle they had to wait 10-15 seconds for the pedestal to be lit. this seems a bit ridiculous to me unless there is something i am missing about how cycles work.

You aren’t missing anything. The cycle should be able start the moment the current ball is scored through a goal. We just aren’t seeing that today. If it’s a communication issue hopefully it will be worked out…

Hard to say case I didn’t see it but there could have possibly been an auto ball still in play

It was near the end of the match. All auto balls had long been scored.

there wasn’t it was in the last 30 secs they had already completed 2 cycles.

i just saw another match where right after a player retrieved a ball from the pedestal but before they had in bouded it the pedestal lit up again as soon as the next ball was placed on it

More than one match at Central Illinois has had this problem. I’ve personally seen it twice (thankfully not to us).

I noticed this as well as a few other things throughout the day’s competitions. As I think many people have said up to this point, this is a very REF critical game to play. It is no longer refs just making sure you play within the rules.

Now refs are supposed to keep the field of play legal and safe. Refs are also the ones responsible for SCORING all balls in Auton, hot, and teleop. Refs are also responsible for documenting when a robot has possession of the ball and what zone.

As a ref, this year is going to be extremely challenging. FIRST has attempted to make things easier by the touch panel interface, but it’s still a lot of info. I believe that the system is setup (if it’s not then it should be redesigned) such that when a ball is scored by the ref the pedestal should light up. During Auton there are “buttons” for all three balls for the alliance you are watching. You mark scored, hot, or untouched for still on the field. Once teleop starts all the balls from Auton must be cleared from the field (ie marked as scored) before the panel switches to the next screen.

I am saying this as a ref for this year’s game. I have been a ref previously in FRC, FTC, and VEX (along with soccer and basketball); and this seems to be the most labor intensive game yet. I’m not saying this is the refs fault for these given instances, but I think it’s either that or a software issue. Disclaimer, I’m not ref’ing until week 6; so I haven’t been field side, but I did pass the test.

Another side note, not all refs come from FRC teams. Not all refs really study and understand the game like teams do. There is always varying levels of refs on the field. This year, it may be a bit more obvious as to which don’t have the best understanding if the game, or an in depth knowledge of strategies teams will [attempt to] employ.

I will leave with one final note. This is week one for more than just the teams and robots.

This same thing happened at Granite State District Event in Nashua NH at least twice. One match will be replayed. There was also a mixup with a ball being brought to the pedestal then being brought to a human player, wasting much time. It must be a “week 1” phenomenon.

We had a match at CIR where upon re-watching the match we were shorted an entire cycle with 3 assists and a truss shot (50 pts). I believe some other points were also not scored totaling (70pts) We lost 81 to 136.

I’m not complaining about the refs not doing there job. I’m backing up the notion that the refs are responsible for way to much. This is the only game I can think of where the flow of the match has been so heavily dependent upon the refs interactions.

There were also multiple instances of the pedestal not lighting for 15 seconds or so as mentioned above.

There was at least one instance where a dead ball was called and the pedestal would not light. The alliance sat there for the last 20 seconds of the match with nothing to do and then threw their hands up.

This happened 3 times to us today. Twice in once match and once in another.

The first time it took almost 45 seconds of trying to get someones attention before the pedestal lit up. They would not replay the match.

This same issue occured at Palmetto. We saw matches where it took a good 20-30 seconds for the pedestal to light up. I had to tell our coach that in the event that a cycle is over, we should tell the ref we’re taking another ball, since the cycle is done and a new one should begin immediately. It’s almost as if the refs are paying more attention to fingertips extending over the safety zone (a whole different issue that is popping up everywhere! ) than the current state of the cycle and score.

The refs have been asked to do too much this year. Also the scoring panels require them to hit the exact right spot before it registers. The refs I talked to said they would push the scoring touchscreen several times before got it to work causing a delay in the pedestal lighting up.

Yes, the refs have a lot to do this year. But that’s only one part of the problem. There are several issues:
– There is latency in the system - some button pushes do not respond for 1 or 2 seconds. And when it takes 2, 3, or 4 pushes to complete the cycle (depending on the situation) - well, the time just adds up.
– There are parts of the system that just plain do not work - FIRST is working on a solution. In the meantime there are time-consuming workarounds.
– Field reset people need to be properly trained - we’re working on that too. They have decisions to make this year about returning balls to play - nearest HP, etc.

I also saw this happening a few times to my team at GSD (we definitely lost at least one match to it). The refs were also a bit paranoid about hands over the lines. We lost about 4 matches for that.

Please don’t blame referees for your losses. If you lost one match due to your HP making a foul, then he/she should have learned to not do it again 3 times.
Back to topic: I would also like to see a better method of calling a dead ball. The “hold up a card” method does not seem to be working very quickly. Maybe a button at the driver station like the e-stop? It seems like this is slowing down cycles as well as the pedestal errors.

Hats off to the Palmetto ref’s and resetters. They worked together and replayed several matches when this happened.

This is a huge issue at Inland right now. I think they asked the refs to do too much and it’s hard for them to watch fouls, keep track of scoring, and remember to light the pedestal every cycle. Our drive coach has to get the ref’s attention every time we’re done with a cycle. I can count on one hand the number of times that teams haven’t had to wait for the pedestal. I suggest 2 refs cover scoring and lighting the pedestal and the other two watch each half of the field for fouls.