Declawed games

Posted by Marc DeSchamp.

Other on team #125, NU-Trons, from Northeastern University and Northeastern University, Textron Systems, BLS, BHS, Milton Academy.

Posted on 1/12/2000 10:44 AM MST

Am I the only one out there who thinks the games have been getting increasingly wussy as the years go by? What ever happened to the good old days of tipping, beating, bashing, and scoring as many points as you could in two minutes?
I remember the time, during Rumble 2 (toroid terror), when Naval Undersea Warfare picked up and dumped Johnson and Johnson. I believe that was one of the more exciting moments in FIRST. Granted it was a bit of a shock to the Johnson and Johnson team, but the rule (up to that point) had always been, ‘go high, but be ready to pay the price.’ Well, I guess some people didn’t agree, so the tipping policy was changed to its current state, making it the first step toward a watered down version of the game.
Then came last year, where alliances were introduced, an iteresting concept to say the least. Then again, someone getting mangled by a peice of industrial machinery can be interesting… Not neccesarily good, but interesting… I believe that last year’s game clearly demnstrated that there are some major kinks in the theory of alliances, the most profound probably being disfunctional machines. There was a lot of justified griping about people getting stiffed as far as partners go, and I don’t think anyone can deny that, while promoting the warm and fuzzy goals of unity and sportmanship, alliances need (at least) a major overhaul. Thus making alliances step two in the journey from robot football to robot golf.
Step three in the process (though taken out of order) is the bumpers. Who came up with the idea of bumpers?! The rules have always stated that your machine should be bult to withstand abuse, rugged play, and a fair amount of smaking around. Now the rules state tha,t if you want to, you can build a rugged, solid machine, but if you don’t, you can pad your machine from abuse (heaven forbid you break a nail). What’s going to come next? No contact rules to protect the folks who don’t want to wreck their paint job? Ugh!
The final step came in this year’s game, the ultimate in wussification. FIRST succeeded in not only keeping the worst aspect of last year’s game, but magnifying it! Now, not only are you out of luck if you’re teamed up with a lousy machine, you’re out of luck if you’re playing against one too… What on earth is the logic here? I’m all for helping the competition, but sometimes it comes back to bite you in the (expletive). Fine, let’s be sportsmanlike, let’s loan our tools in the pit, let’s cheer for our opponents, let’s be all around nice guys, but let’s not have to score for the other team! That’s preposterous! FIRST has taken the entire idea of ‘let the best man/woman win,’ and flushed it down the toilet. There has always been a certain amount of luck involved in the games, but now, it’s just absurd. This year, the best machine is almost certain not to win, I don’t care who they are. We all know what they say (and I agree), that it’s not all about winning, but about the experience you have, but, all that taken into account, noone wants to put all that hard work in, just to see their machine ‘bad lucked’ right out of the game.
All in all, I think that, over the last few years, the competitions have been getting more and more tame. This last act has simply served to completely ‘declaw’ the competition as we know it. I have seen the game go from the rough and tough Ramp N Roll, Hexagon Havoc, and Toroid Terror (note the exciting sounding names), to the softer and cushier Ladder Logic, and Double Trouble (which soud more like events on the Price is Right than anything else), and now this. Well, I don’t know what kind of strategy FIRST’s design guys are employing, but I hope they realize soon that it stinks.

Posted by Keith.

Student on team #131, C.H.A.O.S., from Central High School and Osram Sylvania & Fleet.

Posted on 1/12/2000 6:52 PM MST

In Reply to: Declawed games posted by Marc DeSchamp on 1/12/2000 10:44 AM MST:

Well, I’m glad someone said this. It really neededto be said. These games are going from an exciting robot competition to a game of tiddly winks.
BRING BACK ‘EVERY ROBOT FOR THEMSELVES’ F.I.R.S.T.!!!
How do they want us to go through the qualifying rounds if one of your alliances can’t make it to the field to be your alliance?? Just because you win this competition doesn’t mean that you are the best robot. Another robot better than you could have been put in a position similar to this one and unfairly got taken out of the runnings. This alliance stuff has to go.
Something off the subject… what happened to placebos??? Last year, the placebo wasn’t even around. THe year before, the placebo was a wooden box. The year before however… the placebo, excuse me, placebos were awesome!! Does anyone remember the vacuum cleaner? Or the box that flipped??? That was cool… ok… I’ll stop getting away from my point…
Anyway, I think that what FIRST is doing is wrong. No longer will a robot like UTC, Naval Undersea Warfare, or Delphi (all from 98) be able to win a competition because they are the best robot. IT’s all about who has the best luck of who they are paired with. I understand that ‘gracios professionalism’ is best, but there is a limit for that. Yah, don’t build a robot with a huge bashing arm that can break a robot apart made of steel… or don’t build a robot that will unveil a huge tarp to put in front of your opponents playing station so they can’t see… … but when it comes to being best friends with your fellow robots and putting bumpers on so that robots don’t chip a piece of wood, gracious professionalism has lost its meaning. I think first needs to reevaluate their goals.
But, like the reply to this message will say, yah, we need to stop putting negativity on the game and put our time into building a great robot. The only thing is, if we don’t say something, FIRST will continue to make the games more and more ‘soft’ each year, because they think we like it this way. Alliances bring up more controversy than anything, scoring for your opponents brings up just as much controversy, basically, FIRST is telling us to have gracious professionalism, while at the same time promoting otherwise. Allright, I’ve said enough… Well, comment away on this, I would love to see some feedback.
Good luck everyone on your robots, and see ya at the game!

Posted by Keith.

Student on team #131, C.H.A.O.S., from Central High School and Osram Sylvania & Fleet.

Posted on 1/12/2000 6:58 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Declawed games posted by Keith on 1/12/2000 6:52 PM MST:

We might as well just call this game ‘Jungle Gym Jamboree!’ or ‘Tiddly wink Fun!’ LOL

Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER, from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 1/12/2000 7:13 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Declawed games posted by Keith on 1/12/2000 6:58 PM MST:

I understand where you are both coming from…and my post on the other thread was written after getting worked up about it, and before I sat back and thought for a while. I am a strong supporter for the alliance system, though I do agree in that I have seen the games get progressivly ‘easier’ each year, since I started. There is a large amount of luck involved with the alliances, but as in real life, you don’t always get to pick who you work with. It teaches us all to work around our shortcomings, and succeed. And isn’t that what FIRST trys to instill in all of us?

Lora Knepper
Team 69 (HYPER)
(Helping Youth Pursue Engineering and Robotics)

Posted by Russell Pauley.

Coach on team #344 from Phoebus High School.

Posted on 1/23/2000 8:33 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Declawed games posted by Lora Knepper on 1/12/2000 7:13 PM MST:

I also agree that Alliances puts allot of luck into the game but I do feel that alliances is great. I am not sure if this is possable but I would like to see alliance set at the start of the building and you to have only one partner. But that is very hard because you would have to be going to the same compitionions as your partner.

: I understand where you are both coming from…and my post on the other thread was written after getting worked up about it, and before I sat back and thought for a while. I am a strong supporter for the alliance system, though I do agree in that I have seen the games get progressivly ‘easier’ each year, since I started. There is a large amount of luck involved with the alliances, but as in real life, you don’t always get to pick who you work with. It teaches us all to work around our shortcomings, and succeed. And isn’t that what FIRST trys to instill in all of us?

: Lora Knepper
: Team 69 (HYPER)
: (Helping Youth Pursue Engineering and Robotics)

Posted by Chris.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 1/14/2000 6:48 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Declawed games posted by Keith on 1/12/2000 6:52 PM MST:

: Well, I’m glad someone said this. It really neededto be said. These games are going from an exciting robot competition to a game of tiddly winks.
: BRING BACK ‘EVERY ROBOT FOR THEMSELVES’ F.I.R.S.T.!!!

In my ideal game, the game would be every robot for themselves. The only problem is that more than 2 in the ring was never fair to the best team (double teaming happened regularly). My ideal game would be one-on-one. The problem is that FIRST needs as many robots in the ring as possible so that everyone gets to play as many matches as possible.

Posted by Dodd Stacy.

Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

Posted on 1/14/2000 7:38 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Declawed games posted by Chris on 1/14/2000 6:48 AM MST:

: In my ideal game, the game would be every robot for themselves. The only problem is that more than 2 in the ring was never fair to the best team (double teaming happened regularly). My ideal game would be one-on-one. …

Chris,

Remember the one-on-one Eliminations in Torroid Terror? First bot to score a point then clinched his opponent and hugged him for 110 seconds. BORING. A struggle by one bot to score while the other gloms onto him to prevent is rarely going to break loose the match. How many basket lifts last year could do their job with an extra 130 lbs hung on the side? More than 2 bots, whether it’s 2 on 2 or 3 way cut throat gives the option for one bot to break away from a stalled tactic and break things loose. Alliances aren’t perfect (yet) and cutthroat inherently does involve shifting alliances (transitory double teaming), but they sure keep the matches moving. Just my view.

Dodd

Posted by Jason Morrella.

Coach on team #254, Cheesy Poofs/Bay Bombers, from Broadway High and NASA Ames.

Posted on 1/13/2000 11:01 AM MST

In Reply to: Declawed games posted by Marc DeSchamp on 1/12/2000 10:44 AM MST:

Marc,

Thanks for the laughs, very cleaverly written. The alliance issue has its good and bad points, in general I really like it - especially if/when FIRST is able to work out one or two of the kinks you mentioned.
About the ‘wussification’ of the game however, I think I disagree. Obviously there is no way to really know until the competitions begin, but maybe my team is strategizing wrong? Most of the scenarios we have conceptualized and debated result in VERY agressive and HARD hitting situations. We see robots BASHING each other (AND tipping) on the ramp while trying to guard, control, & access it. We also see robots pushing and hitting each other as they try to add / remove balls from each goal.

like I said, we could be completely wrong.  But we think when the competition starts, many of your concerns will be alleviated.  We think there will be a great deal of rough & tough play in this years game.  We think robots will be very combative regardless of the scoring rules.

I ‘think’ I really like the game this year. I foursee a game which actually acocmplishes the virtually impossible - a 2 minute game in which teams help each other & show incredible sportsmanship & work together BUT, at the same time, contains VERY agressive, rough, and violent interactions. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, but I think we are in store for a very exciting season.

Jason

Posted by Matt.

Student on team #69, HYPER, from North Quincy High School and Gillette.

Posted on 1/16/2000 10:25 AM MST

In Reply to: Declawed games posted by Marc DeSchamp on 1/12/2000 10:44 AM MST:

I can’t say anything about it, one way or the other (this is my 2nd year on the QPS Robotics Team), but I do agree that it is preposterous to help the other team win. Last year, in the nationals, we had a fight, which we won 1250 to 32. Why should we (this year) get 3 times our opponents score? I thought the best machine or machines that complement each other should get the number of points that they score.

On the ‘wussy’ side of the game, I see lots of ‘hand to hand combat’ between the robots. We are still allowed to hit hard and fast, but not if we have the intention to rend or maim another robot. Last year, at Rumble at the Rock, in one of the elimination matches, we were in for a tough time. We were being killed, knocked over (twice), we still got up, rammed one almost off the field (almost taking out the radio transmitter on that robot). Then, when they went for the puck, our alliance partner (Team 193 I think it was) just lifted up the puck, dumping off their robots, put the puck down, we got on and got a clean win of 623 to 0. There was alot of bashing in that match, so I have to disagree with you on the ‘wussification’ of the games.

Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER (Helping Youth Pursue Engineering & Robotics), from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 1/16/2000 1:53 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Declawed games posted by Matt on 1/16/2000 10:25 AM MST:

Ok, I have to clarify Matt’s statements…Our ally was Team 95-Lebanon (we owe you guys for that one)…and the score obviously was not that high. we also did not ram ‘one almost off the field (almost taking out the radio transmitter on that robot).’ (I was driving, so I do know that). On that, you already know my postion on this matter. :slight_smile:

Good Luck,
Lora

Posted by Dodd Stacy.

Engineer on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon High School and CRREL/CREARE.

Posted on 1/17/2000 7:50 AM MST

In Reply to: clarifying some of my teammate’s comments… posted by Lora Knepper on 1/16/2000 1:53 PM MST:

Thanks for the recognition, Matt and Lora. That was one fine match that we’ll always remember.

The business of scoring points for the other team, ‘helping the other team win’, etc. It’s just a new game, with a different system of scoring. You’re still trying to get the maximum number of points possible, using two goals instead of one. They’re both your goals. It’s just that to prove YOU own those goals rather than the other team, you have to demonstrate that your alliance controls the game.

I’m confident that the most competant competitors will wind up being the top seeded teams. And they will ally with teams that can combine with them to blitz the points in the Eliminations, which will call for any strategy that outscores the opponents. 69 - 0 would be good. Earn your way into the Eliminations, and THEN go wild! Good luck to all.

Dodd

Posted by Matt.

Student on team #69, HYPER, from North Quincy High School and Gillette.

Posted on 1/16/2000 4:29 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Declawed games posted by Matt on 1/16/2000 10:25 AM MST:

I would like to apologize for saying all I said on the wussification of the games. I would also like to give credit to Team 95 (not 93 or 193) for helping team 69 win the match at Rumble at the Rock. The reason I did not give credit the first time was simple: I just forgot. Again, I would like to apologize.

Posted by michael ciavaglia.

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Interior Systems.

Posted on 1/24/2000 5:49 AM MST

In Reply to: Declawed games posted by Marc DeSchamp on 1/12/2000 10:44 AM MST:

I like the idea of allowing hand-to-hand combat. It does make the game more interesting during those two minutes. But… It is hard to see your machine being destroyed after all of the hard work. Worse yet, you now have to fix the machine.

I recall a match a few years ago in New England where a team lowered it’s arms and charged the other team like a bull after a defenseless matador. My heart went out to that team. I agree that you should try to design a robust robot for this type of battle, but there are other robot competitions that fight to the death.

I pride ourselves on making a competitive machine that illustrates the spirit of FIRST in every match we play. Anybody can be a bully and intentionally try to destroy something good. I think the rules of the COMPETITION make the game better for everyone involved.

The only place that I could accept this style of play is in the ‘grudge matches’ when the season is over.

My 2 cents.

Mike C.