Deep Space is going to be ruined by Defence

defense

#42

Based on what I’ve seen so far, I think it’s fair to say that defense could indeed wreck some havoc this year. (I suppose whether this ruins the game may be up to interpretation). Even ignoring the lack of protected zones, which is certainly significant, hatch panels require a fair amount of precision to place securely. Bumping the corner of a robot trying to place a hatch panel to turn them will most likely result in having to line up again to place the hatch, which in turn delays the cargo.


#43

I noticed that being able to score with precision and finesse and do it quickly was crucial at the higher levels last year. After doing the math, I concluded that a Hatch Panel has to be placed fairly precisely. It is possible that some of the tall elevator robots in some reveal videos won’t be able to score as reliabily at “competition speed”.


#44

Yes. I hope to convince the girls to transition to a different, less vulnerable design. They understand that there is risk and have made a few spare parts but I don’t think they realize how great the risk is. This change might have to wait until after our first event :frowning:


#45

I was clicking the reply box to type something along this sentiment when your post popped up.

If I think about my favorite games to watch/play since joining FRC in 2013, Aerial Assist is easily the first to come to mind, with Power Up coming in not too far behind it. While the two games were wildly different, both had the potential for very dynamic strategy and execution; AA accomplished this via its defense-heavy nature combined with an open field, while PU got a similar result by utilizing scoring objectives that affected your opponent’s scoring. Both games allowed, if not required, playoff alliances to change up their strategies both throughout the bracket and in individual matches in order to adjust to what the opposition was doing, and failure to properly do so gave alliances that were weaker on paper the chance to steal a win.

Stronghold wasn’t as good as those two in my opinion, but I will give it a shout-out as it still gave some excitement and curiosity by requiring alliances to adjust to layout changes match to match.

Deep Space, on the other hand, I’m betting will be most boring game we’ve had since Recycle Rush. Yes, there will be defense, and yes, it will be somewhat effective, but it will also be a bit predictable. Cycling won’t change much throughout the match, and the more efficient side will be apparent pretty early on most of the time. If the two alliances aren’t very evenly matched, it won’t be that exciting to watch.


#46

Yeah I definitely agree that this game will become very cycle heavy and not have much strategy at all because my prediction right now is that an alliance will be 2 robots playing offense and 1 robot playing defense the entire match and the 1 robot would only come back during the end game. Each robot will either cycle or play defense the entire match and that’s it.


#47

I definitely feel the same way about Power Up - I like it to a “control point” video game.

The only major strategic variance I forsee in this game, ignoring the effect of random robot variation we see every year, is a shift from rocket focus to cargo ship strategies in later eliminations matches. It might just be wishful thinking, though.


#48

Just wanted to add a little anecdote, 2017 didn’t have to be a solitaire game. We made it to semifinals at our lone event as an alliance Captain by playing defense and scouting well. Defense was really effective that year because teams weren’t used to dealing with it, you could slow down their gear retrieval and we even trapped robots on our side so they couldn’t get back in time to climb.


#49

At first I thought defense might be too overwhelming and I think for a good chunk of the season it will be. However, towards the end of the season I think teams will adapt and come up with new mechanisms, maneuvers, and code to help reduce the effectiveness of the defenders. I think sideways scoring mechanisms like 4613 will be an early example of this.


#50

Everybot sends a defender…done, and same for any other efficient cycler not like there will be many of those


#51

Defense wins championship, if I had my way I would play defense all the time


#52

chuckles You’re missing the best set, though. At the L.A. Regional earlier that year, there were two tipped robots in the playoffs.



WITHOUT looking at TBA, or going to the ends of the videos, which one(s) picked up a red card?

I don’t think defense will ruin the game, it’ll keep it from becoming Recycle rush.


#53

I don’t think it’s about shutting down one offensive robot. A good defense bot this year can shut down one quarter of the field, and a short push to the side of a robot will topple most high robots. I agree with 610. This is going to be a bloodbath.


#54

Looking at the finals from Week 0 I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned the awesome defense and counter-defense played by a single cargo.

50 seconds in the video a defender high points their robot on a cargo, effectively shutting them down for the rest of the match.

2:07 in the video a bot racing back to climb also runs over a cargo, but is lucky to be nudged by their partner, who got a 10 point penalty for being inside the frame.


#55

Unless it’s Uppercut


#56

One would think that putting a Cargo ball into the Cargo Ship should be pretty easy but 1153 had their Cargo ball bounce off the dividers and not go in twice. It is unclear if action from 1517 was the cause of this.

In 2016, I watched a defender come across the Defenses to hassle our alliance only to high-center itself on a Boulder for over half the match. Only one of their wheels touched the carpet, barely. They kept spinning around and around, slowly. It was kind of comical to watch…


#57

Defense to deny climbs is going to be massive. Wait until the alliance captain/3rd level climb bot is scoring a cargo at the rocket (in my head I imagine them scoring the last cargo they want to before climbing). Then just t-bone them and push their robot as far away from the hab as possible.


#58

Knocking over a robot intentionally is a red card right?


#59

How does a referee determine intention? This red card policy seems rather subjective


#60

People need to read G19. It doesn’t use the word intention, and it doesn’t assess a penalty for tipping an opponent.

It specifically bans strategies aimed at damaging and inhibiting robots by certain means.

Running into an opponent who is extended is not a strategy aimed at tipping them. You run into an extended robot to prevent them from scoring, whether or not it will tip them. The rule is written to be very narrow. So you’re allowed to cause a robot to tip, as long as it wasn’t part of a strategy to cause them to tip.


#61

This is not how the rule is generally applied. The usual application is that if Robot A runs into Robot B (with a very momentary impact) and Robot B tips it’s rare that it will be called. If, however, robot A runs into Robot B and robot B begins to tip, robot A generally is expected to back off. If Robot A continues to push and clearly had time to back away to save the tip, then they are carded.