Deep Space is going to be ruined by Defence

defense

#62

Indeed. I’m just saying merely causing a robot to tip due to intentional actions is not banned. It’s only banned to adopt a strategy of tipping (e.g. continuing to tip when there is time to back off).

(I.e. there is a difference between an intentional action and intentionally causing the effect of an action. For example, you can intentionally fire a gun without intending to hit someone, yet hit them anyways.)


#63

Do you remember 2014? Defense made that year one of the most enjoyable years to watch/play. Robots took huge hits since making a team miss a shot was worth so much.


#64

Robot also didn’t get 7ft tall in 2014. Its a totally different ball game this year… :smiley:


#65

I saw what you did there. :wink:


#66

Last year, with the exception of Hub City, 1817 was passed over until the second round with the serpentine going back up. I expect most teams to pick a scoring robot as their first pick and a defensive bot second again this year (if their strategy is to play a defensive bot). This year may be different, but I don’t expect it to be.


#67

Its also not realistic this year for a team to go full speed across the field into an opposing robot. In 2014 that happened fairly regularly.


#68

Challenge accepted


#69

Its not? pretty sure there is a direct near full length run on each side of the cargo ship…


#70

Has there ever been a year when the game was ruined by defense? The only time I can remember defense being almost as substantial as offense was 2014 and that was still a very fun and exciting game (especially at the championship competition).

Here’s the deal. If no (or minimal) defense were allowed this year then this game would be extremely boring. This is because cycling on offense only takes half of the field (similar to recycle rush), thus there would be no enemy interaction whether intentional or not since you never have to drive to the other end of the field.

I know from experience that it is never fun to have defense played on you, but it also provides an opportunity for the other members of your alliance to have uninterrupted scoring opportunities. Plus, teams have been getting a lot more serious about scouting in the last few years, that it will be rare that a deserving team miss out on playoff matches.

Final point:
Defense allows an alliance with good teamwork to beat an alliance with objectively better robots. This is the best case scenario. It ensures that alliance selections will be just as much about selecting “good” robots as it is about selecting robots that compliment your strategy.


#71

When the game first was announced, we noticed no safe zones near rocket and cargo ships. Then we thought about the last time this happened, and how everyone thought in 2014 with such a wide target and open space, you can easily score the big red ball.
Teams that can get on level 3 HAB will have a huge advantage in the standings. Just look at Team 58 at the Week 0 event. #1 seed and winners and that’s all they did the entire match. :slight_smile:
And before anyone says it will be less effective in later weeks and the game will evolve, I totally understand.


#72

Counter-defense, gotta love it…


#73

Cannot wait for 2007-esque defense to happen, with the limb-ripping and all.

Come to think of it, there are many parallels between this year and 2007; scoring area in the middle of the field (rack & cargo ship), odd donut-shaped game pieces (innertubes and hatch panels), climbing in the endzones at the end of the game (other robots & HAB platform).
And that game was awesome!


#74

Teams are going to go to speed up from across the field to play ram into a scoring robot while their alliance member is scoring on the rocket or cargo ship?

Also IN MOST CASES if this were to happen, they could realistically do it only once a match since you won’t leave defense just to go back to playing defense.

Defense like that this year will lead to knocked over robots which will incur fouls.


#75

I don’t see why this is a problem.
Defence in many sports is underrated and unappreciated.
A Robot that cannot perform awesome scoring capabilities should not be allowed to perform a role in a match?

Having a game where defence can make a difference makes this game more exciting, IMHO.

There are two Rockets. Maybe an offensively oriented alliance may have to sacrifice one Robot to counteract the defence provided by the opposing alliance.

This does not make this an “ugly” game, rather I think that it adds to overall gameplay strategy that may make this one of the better games in recent history.

Saying that defence will cause “lots of broken Robots” and “unhappy teams” makes me question how robust designs are being made. Check your connections.
What’s is worse? Descending from Hab 2 or colliding with a defensive Robot?

Play the game and plan for eventualities.


#76

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that getting rammed by a 150lb robot traveling at 15fps while your mechanism is extended is a lot worse than falling 6" onto your wheels under your own power.


#77

I am certainly guilty of using hyperbole in the title and original post of this thread, but I think it helped trigger an important discussion.

Yea I’m not too worried about my team’s robustness, we tend to over-engineer things, and as teams who were at our practice field can attest to we’ve already broken almost everything that I think can break last weekend. Though I am worried (and most teams should be) of any mechanisms that are outside of the bumper zone or score game pieces.

I wrote my original post more with concern for the average team that hasn’t played this game yet, I strongly believe that the majority of teams are not prepared for the brutal nature of this game. Robots are going to tip over, mechanisms are going to break, so start making spare parts now!


#78

To kind of wrap up my thoughts here I think it’s undeniable that defense will have a large impact on the game however I don’t think that saying it will ruin this game is quite right.

Firstly, sending 1 robot on defense will be the right play for 99% of alliances. Sending over 1 robot to play defense in a game with no protected zones will not only allow them to disrupt opponent scoring but also cause a lot of congestion. Because there are no protected zones and this field is already pretty narrow, defending teams can either sit there and get T boned by other robots as they block paths or hit other robots as they are trying to line up and disrupt them. By just being there they will also create a lot of congestion which will slow down all the other teams on the opposing alliance as they will have to maneuver around each other more.

This game was designed to be very cycle heavy so to say it will “ruin” this game is incorrect imo. If anything it will make the game more exciting so it’s not like 2015 where each alliance is just cycling 24/7 and there’s basically no contact. Personally I prefer games which are more dynamic such as 2018 so I doubt I would enjoy watching it either way but I would prefer to watch this game with more defense.


#79

The neat thing about tall robots this year is that they do NOT require as high a center of gravity as most tall robot years. Neither game piece weighs more than a pound or two, and either can be scored with fingertip force. I rather expect to see a lot of lightweight lifts (arms and double-reverse four bars) for mid- and upper-level rocket scoring.


#80

You are thinking about it as an engineer would. I have already seen teams where they are “copying without understanding” and have elevators that are likely going to be much heavier than they need to be.


#81

Our scouters get bored because of lack of entertainment in the week 2 and 3. I would want to do defense just because jow the game is set up and another reason…