Deep Space is going to be ruined by Defence

defense

#102

You can only park in front of the the rocket, not in front of the opponents loading zones


#103

Locking down the quickest route out of a single loading station can still be very impactful in the eliminations, even if the defense bot can’t predict the precise scoring location of a team.


#104

There’s no specific rule against parking in front of their loading zones. There’s a specific rule about contact while they are fully inside their loading zones–G13–and there are rules about how large you can be, but there’s no specific rule against parking there. That may or may not be an oversight.


#105

The game easily reminds me of 2016 tower defense. When I was back on 1405, we had a pretty good first hand sight of how effective one robot could be to defend that tower. There are a few differences though, in 2016, D was right in front of the drivers and there were clear dividers on the base of the tower.

This year, D would be played at the other end of the field with no clear dividers at the base of the rocket ship.

The kicker is and has been stated in this thread numerous times; one rocket. Teams will only go for one rocket, let them score one or two hatches and it’s clear which rocket they will be going for. I see D being played easily in quals - if done proper and smart.

D will be part of every game in FIRST unless entirely not allowed - safe zones or seprate areas (2015). We will have to design robots to adjust to it, we will have to design robots if that’s the teams main strategy.

I am excited to see how this will play out. I do think the D will be different from quals to elims, but a smart alliance will still use the D to their advantage when it comes to elims.

We shall see soon enough!

:wink:


#106

Hypothetical for people worried about defense…

Given:
G19. Don’t tear others down to lift yourself up. Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of
ROBOTS via attachment, damage, tipping, or entanglements are not allowed.

G20. Stay out of other ROBOTS. Initiating deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside the vertical extension of its FRAME PERIMETER, including transitively through a GAME PIECE, is not allowed.

Also given: a robot pursues a strictly offensive strategy. It does not cross the center of the field, and does not initiate any contact with opposing robots other than in attempting to score on its own side.

Question 1) If a robot pursuing a strategy of playing defense by ramming the offensive robot initiates contact and is damaged by a mechanism which has been deployed by the offensive robot, who, if anyone, is penalized?

Question 2) If a robot pursuing a strategy of playing defense by ramming the offensive robot initiates contact and is flipped by a mechanism which has been deployed by the offensive robot, who, if anyone, is penalized?

Question 3) Is there an engineering solution to counteract aggressive defender actions, which falls within the rules?

Follow up questions) Does the answer to questions 1 and 2 depend on the purpose of the deployed mechanism? What if the mechanism is a ball collector? What if the deployed mechanism is designed to ‘fend off’ the aggressive defender who is initiating contact? If a ramp bot deployed their ramp, and an aggressive defender drove up it and flipped over, is the offensive robot or the aggressive defender at fault?


#107

From my understanding of the rules in none of the first two hypotheticals is anyone penalized. The whole purspose of these rules is to not destroy other robots. This is a tough game and robots need to be built to withstand big hits or falls. If they are built to weak then the team should bring repairs and anticipate this happening if they plan on a defensive strategy. For the offense trying to fend these aggressive defenders off, it’s almost impossible, besides a pin or reaching into the opponents robots, to be penalized. As long if the mechanism to protect them does not intentially break or breach the defending robot it appears it would be legal. There are few options that would do any significant effect the only one being a wheelie bar mech to prevent them from tipping.


#108

I do anticipate a lot less penalties with the loss of safe zones. So many little bumps, so many penalties.

I’m curious how it will affect other penalties now that refs have an easier time watching their zones.


#109

For blocking RP I understand how rough defense can be. Forcing yourself to have to score on half the field while a robot is on that same half trying to stop you will be a challenge but I think I agree with above about how much less impact that is when your not chasing RP.

I think a lot of people are underestimating line of sight on the opposite end of the field. It should be significantly easier for my team to drive around on my side of the field then it is for my opponent. Once I can freely score on any rocket I want in elims I can’t see defense being able to keep up with me around the cargo ship and I should be able to out drive them to either side of the field.


#110

It depends on the side your opponent is playing from and the side you’re playing from— it’s really easy to see straight down the lanes for either side, but opposite lanes seem to get hairy fast.


#111

You are absolutely right about sight lines. Driver vision will be very difficult for most teams who will play defense. This year at competition, I am going to try and see my opposing alliances robots, take a good look at all 3, figure out strengths and weaknesses, and then from there figure out their possible defense bot. Then right before the match starts, glance over to see where their drivers are placed on the opposing driver side. You can base you rocket rp to be opposite to that driver station, which can hinder their line of vision or sight during the match. Some teams will also end up having really good, low latency cameras, and that’s the downfall to this style of scouting.


#112

You will know from the match schedule, which driver station a team will be in. They are in order, left to right, as viewed from behind the glass.


#113

I think the sight line point is pretty big.
It’s not 2014 where everyone had clear vision of the entire field.

If you can figure out which opposing driver station has the defense robot team in it…play to the side of the field they can’t see very well.

I don’t think there will be many teams that can play effective defense with just a camera feed.


#114

Exactly, it will be hard to play off of camera feeds


#115

I thought you can pick where you stand as drive team?


#116

Nope. You are assigned an alliance station in the match schedule.


#117

Oh word but you decide where you robot starts right?


#118

Yes, you work out with your alliance partners where you start your robot.


#119

The rules (C10) also only allow standing in or close to your PLAYER STATION…you can’t go more than about half a stations width from your station.


#120

I was looking for that rule because I wasn’t sure it existed. Thanks


#121

here is the rule, most of it is in a Blue Box, though. I haven’t got good enough at formatting here to be able to make it look right, but I suppose I could just take a screen shot and post an image?

C10. Plug in to/be in your PLAYER STATION. The OPERATOR CONSOLE must be used in the
PLAYER STATION to which the team is assigned, as indicated on the team sign.
Violation: The MATCH will not start until the situation is corrected. If during a MATCH, DISABLED.
One intent of C10 is to prevent unsafe situations where long tethers to OPERATOR
CONSOLE devices increase tripping hazards as the operator moves about the
ALLIANCE STATION. In the interest of avoiding nuisance penalties associated with an
operator stepping outside of a prescribed area, we prefer to offer a general guideline as
to what it means to use the OPERATOR CONSOLE in the ALLIANCE STATION.
Provided the operator is within close proximity of their PLAYER STATION, there will be
no repercussions. However, if an operator is located more than approximately ½
PLAYER STATION width away from their own PLAYER STATION, that would be
considered a violation of C10.