After reading ThirteenofTwo’s post about the lack of defense (and a pretty good idea) made me think of this: In the perfect defensive game, there would be two offensive robots, and one defensive robot per side.
What are the varying strategies that this defensive bit can do, now that we’ve seen week one?
ThirteenOfTwo suggested a good idea where the two weakest robots on an alliance would go to the coopertition bridge and spend the whole match trying to get the coopertition balance, ensuring a minimum score of +2 seeding points per alliance.
What we saw were robots that could not score, if they could block the inbounder from returning balls to the other side of the field the alliance now had a constant flow of game objects to pick up and score again.
Using robots to defend on the opponents side of the field ended up raking in more penalty points, it is just too easy to get a foul.
If they cant get from one side of the field to the other, your non-shooters are pretty much worthless until endgame.
We saw in Alamo today (I didnt watch anything else so no idea) that fender shooters can be easily defended against by wedging a robot againt the opponents fender and not allowing the fender-bot close enough.
I saw an alliance that worked out really well where two “defensive” robots went on to the opponents side of the field and shot every ball over to the one offensive robot that would promptly score them. This starved the opposite alliance of balls.
You can play defense on more than just robots. Control of the game piece is key. If you don’t have a game piece, you can’t score. This should be the goal of any defensive robot. There are several methods of disrupting control of the game piece, the most common is keeping a robot from getting too one. The other (less intuitive than just bashing a robot :P) is to control the game piece yourself.
For this game, I think the second strategy for defense is better as it is harder to get penalized. It will also easily swing a game into your favor.
there were a few defensive strategies i saw watching webcasts that i found effective. at kansas city there was one team what would cross the barrier and sit in their alliance’s lane and “get fouled” i guess that’s kinda an offensive strategy since you get points for it… but there you go.
another strategy was defending the fender… a number of teams were very accurate from the fender but a defense bot goes there and bumps them a little bit… miss miss miss… i think that happened to 148 in the semis at alamo.
another strategy from alamo, blocking the alliance bridge. parking a little over a robot’s length from the alliance bridge against the wall blocks robots from getting lined up and approaching.
i think ball stealing would be good as well… having that robot in your lane taking balls from that side of the field and shooting them toward your alliance partners. Most of the time no one’s over in their lane. it’s 3 red on one side of the field and 3 blue on the other. having the least accurate shooter on your alliance over in your lane racking up foul points and getting rebounds/stealing balls… i think it’d be effective, and it gives your alliance more room to work.
I quite disagree with this categorization of teams as “defensive” and “offensive” in terms of alliance roles. You’re only limiting your alliance if you stick to that paradigm too strongly.
A lot people assume “defense” = physical play on the opponent’s side of the field and “offense” = scoring points. That viewpoint is incredibly limiting. There is so much more to this game than that.
For example: Would you call getting on the opponent’s side of the field and passing balls forward “offense” or “defense”? I would say it is both. It is also, context-dependent, a highly effective way to play the game. A point denied and a point potentially scored, if your partner in your scoring zone is ready with the catch.
What about 488 and 118’s balance blockade in the semis of Alamo? That is “defense” in every sense of the word. Yet, if that alliance stuck to the conventional wisdom of “two offense one defense” role-based play, they would not have stood a chance.
Abandon your preconceived notions, play every match to win, and most importantly THINK. That is the key to this game… and every other, for that matter.
Did you notice that after lunch on Friday that behavior totally stopped? I’m pretty sure that the refs watched a couple of matches to make sure there was a pattern there & pointed G45 out to the team (I’m sure we’re talking about the same robot). That’s not a strategy anyone upon which anyone should be hanging their hats. On occasional penalty or two, sure. But don’t just sit there & run into anyone that comes close to your lane. Besides, there were several times that teams were too far from their own lane & ended up getting their own penalty, running into an opponent in the key. There’s not a lot of neutral space over there.
Ball starvation is huge. Sending someone over to the other alliance’s side to get their ammunition & use it yourself (send it over, go back & score, whatever) is a must; you just have to be smart about staying away from the key & their bridge. It’s not necessary to send your least accurate shooter, though; just someone that’s quick, maneuverable, and has a darn smart drive team. Reference: Bomb Squad.
I don’t think anyone has video up (Ustream is replaying Alamo right now though - maybe you’ll be able to find something). As you’ve probably seen from the CD thread, 148 pulled triple balancing out of their hat of tricks during Alamo elims (with 922 and 2936). Their strategy was essentially to get 2936 started onto the bridge, with 922 next to it; during the last 30 seconds (or 20), 148 would drive around and push everyone up, then stabilize the balance with their stinger.
What 118 and 488 did was block 148 from getting there at the end and prevent the triple balance. Some beautiful gameplay.
Again, I haven’t seen the match but that sounds like it would be in violation of G23 that says “Robots on the same alliance may not work together to blockade the court in an attempt to stop the flow of the match.”
If you were playing defense couldn’t you goto the opponents side side and park on their key (I’m mean as long as you don’t hit any one then you wouldn’t violate rule [G28]) or you could just sit in front of the drivers station and distract them. I don’t know
You don’t have to hit one of them…all that has to happen is they run into you. I have a hard time understanding why a ref would invoke G45 on you when you’re trying to position yourself on your own key to shoot, and the other alliance has a robot in your way. This is, in my opinion, precisely the reason G44 exists this year.
As always, defensive strategy relies on your opposition. However, I think there is cause to actually have 1.5 robots in defence, particularly if the opposition alliance has fender bots.
This year’s game is not really about the endgame, as it is about the lead. You should win if you have the lead going in to the endgame. That’s why autonomous is huge in this game, whereas bridges should just cancel out.
If you have the lead, the strategy should be to disrupt and mimic. While your best shooter stays in your half scoring baskets, the other robot can go protect your alley (ie have a robot sit in your alley) so the inbounders can get the balls over to the other side without any opposition opponents stealing your ball, while stealing any rebounds and cross the field to score [maybe take turns with the other robot]. The third robot can just be a nuisance, sit in front of the fender or compete for any rebounds.
Depending on how strong your alliance is at balancing versus your opposition, the d-bot can either go for the alliance bridge early, or park itself near the opposition bridge early to delay the opposition balancing.
This year’s game seems to be about timing and possession. Disrupting that is the key to defence.
We were a non-scoring bot for our win in elims at Hatboro-Horsham. Fender defense is great for dunkers and even short-range shooters (sorry 709). It’s pretty easy for 1-on-1, even if they can theoretically score front and side. It may get trickier when alliances put more thought towards G28 being transitive, though, depending on how Refs call G45-G28. Overall, I definitely felt safer pulling this at a Week 1 than I will/would have at a Week 4.
“Inbound Chicken” is a great triple-threat against alliances with no strong feeder. Block the inbounder and easily hoard balls for your alliance. When the prospective feeder comes over, play chicken with Key-Ally mirror fouling. You tie them up, remove a (in our case, their main) scorer, and bottleneck their supply chain. Just make sure there’s no way for them to get balls to stay on your robot. (We faced our close hopper away from them just in case.) Also, regardless of where the opposing alliance is, only 1 of your robots in their ally at a time. It’s easy to get jammed up and have an opposing robot rush their Bridge, causing major fouls.
Defense was pretty low during quals at Week 1, but I still kept an eye on our Ally. We cross the barrier quick enough that I could pull us back to top load pretty quickly, unfortunately for any opposing bots in the way. That won us one match and helped in another.
Balance blocking is another smart move, though dangerous if you’re low traction. This was undervalued a lot from what I saw, but I think 118 and 448 changed that. Albeit continued legality pending, but unofficially G23 refers to blockading the court, not double-teaming a robot.
Finally, I think a lot of alliances, especially in quals, are underestimating the value of Inbounder hoarding. I saw several alliances win Hybrid and lose the match because they immediately returned all balls to the court. Some alliances would even have been better off with Inbounders holding 5-6 and each robot basically holding 3. This was especially true when the opposing alliance couldn’t lower the bridge, a ratio which will hopefully change significantly in the coming weeks. It takes educated human players (a sadly underrepresented group at Week 1), reasonable scouting or at least coaching, and smart playing, though. I suspect the advantages of this will diminish as the weeks continue, but at least Week 2 should keep it in mind.
