Has your team ever denied one of the top seeds picking you? Have you ever witnessed another team denying a selection? If so, I imagine these teams were in the top 8 as well, right? Why do you deny in that case?
Just wondering, because I’ve never seen a team deny, and it seems like it would be very ungracious.
Check the responses in the Great Lakes thread. It also happened at Midwest this year, and at Detroit a year or two ago. There are a variety of reasons for declining to participate in an alliance, and most of them are GP.
i believe it happened in jersey a few years ago, and 25 and 103 ended up together (correct me if im wrong, i know i have seen it once), but this is not unGP at all. If your team is lucky/good enough to be in the top 8 then you have earned the opportunity to pick who ever you want. The team that declines would only do so if they thought that the teams they had in mind to pick would be a better fit. While scouting i encourage looking for the bot that flys under the radar, that sleeper pick that tends to take your alliance from good to great.
As said above, it’s largely GP. If your robot fails, you can deny to prevent yourself from hampering the alliance. That’s the only reason I’ve ever though of, although I’m sure there are more.
I’m sure you understand that denying does prevent you from joining any alliances afterwards though. I think it’s largely used as a formal withdrawal from competition, since it is necessary for teams to send representatives to the field.
Yeah, it has happened in FLR and GTR this past year. If you are a low seeded team and not picked by the top 2/3 teams, there is a real good plan to deny teams 4-6 to make your own alliance. It’s not always the case of being non GP, it’s still all about survival in the elimination rounds. If you feel the other team doesn’t fit in a plan you have or compliment your robot more then others out there, then go right ahead and deny the pick. Also something happened at GTR, that I have never witnessed before. Team 03 knew coming into the later half of the day that their drive system was on the verge of breaking. They had announced before the alliance pickings that they might be fully operational and requested not to be picked. I felt that was a really professional announcement from a professional team. I can only wish other teams take that and do it as well instead of being selected and then announce to the alliance that they are not full functional.
If declining, and the team is outside the Top 8…
A team might decline an invitation because they know their robot is badly damaged and would not serve the alliance well in the elimination rounds. An example of this gracious action was set in motion by Team 703 at GTR this past weekend.
A team may be ignorant of the alliance selection rules and by declining a pick, remove themselves from competing in the eliminations - this has happened at least once before, but I do not recall when and where. Regional announcers/MC’s have made it a point to explain the picking rules to teams in MUCH more detail in recent seasons after this had happened a few times back in the day. No one wants to see this example happen again.
If declining, and the team is inside the Top 8:
By making into the Top 8 seeds, a team has earned the right to choose their own alliance partners and serve as an alliance captain. They have also earned the right to decline the invitation to form an alliance with a higher-seeded opponent who may choose them. This is well within their rights as granted by the rules and is not in any way an ungracous act. If the team declines an invitation from a higher-seeded alliance captain, they can then not accept an invitation from any other alliance captain - they may only choose their own alliance.
And a related side-venture…
If picking, and the team is a top seed:
*]A side effect of this action is to prevent most of the Top 8 seeds from picking each other - they must each form an alliance composed of themselves and teams outside the top 8. This has the effect of greatly leveling the playing field and spreading out the best talent among the alliances. This generally leads to less certainty of who the regional/division winner will be and generally creates a more exciting elimination atmosphere filled with closer matches. Some who enjoy watching total domination by the few at the expense of the many feel that such a picking strategy interferes with top performers’ destiny to join forces and dominate the competition on the way to a regional victory or Einstein. One counters that if teams are truly “destined” to be together on their way to the gold, these top robots would have seeded #1 to begin with in order to have complete control over who they can ally with. But I digress. 
I once saw a team, not in the top 8, deny an alliance selection because they didn’t understand the rules. They wanted to partner up with a different team not the #1 seed. They were told that denying this selection would forfeit them from the elimination rounds & they still denied. Then when the team they wanted to pair up with called their number they were happy & came running out to accept. They were told again that they could not accept. Lets saw the behavior I witnessed after that announcement was not GP, for that matter it wasn’t even PG.
In 2006 at Nationals (Newton Field), 176 was denied twice. It was part of a strategy by the #1 seed to break up any “super alliances”. 176 was not one of the best robots on the field, but had been doing fairly well and had a nice match schedule. They ended up being the only undefeated team in the division and ultimately took the 1 seed.
The seeding was…
So to answer the question…a good amount of times denying a team/blocking a team has a lot to do with strategy. However there are a decent amount of times where the seeded team is just not up to snuff for some teams to pair with.
For a team to deny in the top 8 is okay. Many strategies are pre-planned going into the alliance pickings, some of which tell the person picking that they will not accept an invitation to be allied together. It’s all part of the “game” or FIRST would have a rule not allowing this to happen.
For a team to deny out of the top 8 is also okay. If a team has a robot that may have a broken something-or-other and does not want to keep an alliance from having an alliance partner that is at “100%” instead, it’s very gracious for them to deny the selection.
As for what happened at GLR this past weekend, I saw it as an immense strategy put into place, and it worked very effectively.
Travis,
This is what I tell rookie teams at each regional on Saturday morning…
“Be sure to have a list of your top 5 #1 picks and top 5 #2 picks ready for alliance selection. Make sure you give the list to your team captain before alliance selection. If you find yourself in a position to be picking you want to be prepared and if you are picked you want to help your alliance partner pick another robot that will fill out your capabilities. If you choose someone in the top eight and they decline, do not feel bad, just move on to your next choice. They either think they have a better chance with another robot; they think they would like to play you; or they think your robot would be a better fit with another robot you have not thought about. Remember that this might be their and your last chance to bring home some hardware this season. Everyone wants to play on Saturday afternoon. Finally, remind your student to keep an eye on the available team list on the big screen. You don’t want to pick someone that is already in an alliance, you don’t want to look like a rookie out there.”
I know there have been other threads about picking teams you know will decline so they cannot ask another team in the top eight. My $0.02 on this subject is Shame On You!
On a side note, I have seen teams accept an invitation when they shouldn’t have. If you don’t think your team matches up well then it’s more than OK to say “thanks but no.”
Strategy is an integral part of the robotics competition and the alliance selections are a part of that. If you think of the importance of strategy in games that you are familiar with - apply that to the entire process of build and competition, from design through alliance selections, and throughout each match, with alliances working with each other.
I’m linking you to the conferences that will be available at the Championship. There are those who will not be attending the Championship, I understand, but I would like you to look at some of the topics and note who some of the presenters are. A few of the presentations discuss strategy. If there is any way for folks to attend these, I would highly recommend it.
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FIRST_Place/2008_Conference_Schedule_32008.pdf
The game, strategy, drivers continuing to improve throughout the competition(s), alliances working with each other - each of these elements continue to deepen and develop, as does our understanding. It’s pretty spectacular.
If the Los Angeles selections for 2008 ever come up on video, there were four declines to partner with one team. All four came from inside the top 8. Then one of those teams was picked and accepted and #9 came up…only to be sent back after the FTA reminded the person running the selection (not the MC in this case) that you can’t accept after declining.
My team went into those knowing that if we were picked (by some fluke) we would decline.
I also remember one instance–not sure if it’s something my dad told me or something I saw–but a team declined because they were going to miss their flight home if they participated in the elimination rounds.
And then there are the “breaker” declines. I won’t go into those, as others have done it already.
It’s pretty simple really, the seeding process is not perfect. Sometimes teams get lucky match selections and seed higher than the level their robot is performing at. When this happens seeded teams can sometimes get stronger partners by choosing their own alliance.
I have to disagree wholeheartedly on this one. Picking teams you know will decline is NOT simply a last-ditch, “mess everyone else up” endeavour. It is a VERY real and effective way to build a regional winning alliance, even for very “so-so” robots.
Consider this hypothetical situation where one mediocre team is ranked #1 overall, followed by several excellent robots:
Let’s also assume 9999 is marginally better than teams 3000 and 4000.
9999 should start picking at 39 (NOT 1114)
39 declines
103 declines
968 declines
1625 declines
now 9999 picks 1114.
Consider 1114’s position: What is the BEST POSSIBLE ALLIANCE that can be formed at the regional now?
That’s right, it ACTUALLY is 9999 and 1114, because the rest of the field is now forced to pick robots 3000, 4000 and below.
1114 should DEFINITELY accept, and they WILL form the strongest alliance at the regional.
The strategic power of the 1st rank seed as a “so-so” robot should not be trifled with. Unfortunately, we RARELY ever see it used to its maximum potential.
The truth is, some (actually MOST) teams can only build okay robots. Some of these teams are consistently higher performers by just finding a way to win (in a GP way of course). Can they really be faulted for this? To me, this process is easily just as inspiring…
Well, you are also assuming there are no great teams outside of the top 8. Otherwise, great analysis. I always had a list of what I would do if X happened at events. It looked quite like that.
Well, I mean, at most events there arent many more than 5 or 6 truly dominant machines…
Well…you don’t have to think dominant. Not all regionals have anyone dominant. Look at Oklahoma/Seattle/Minnesota…not many people can name teams that participated there, let alone 5 or 6 standouts. You might just have a whole bunch of mediocre teams with 2 or 3 above them.
(I had this worded correctly in my head before…but I can’t remember how I wanted to say it. So it might be confusing/not making the point I was getting at)
i agree with not always picking the “standout” team, it is more about what makes you alliance complete. In this game you would look for 2 hurdlers and 1 lap/defense bot. Last year for us in Boston, the stars aligned and we had stellar performances in the elims. 126 and 125(us), were able to each cap up to 5 or 6 times a match, 69 would cap 1-3 in a match, and then deploy their huge ramps at the end. (It ended up that 69 would stay close to the home zone and put up a colum and then play d or get back and deploy ramps, and 126 and 125 would blitz the other side of the field and put up as many tubes as possible, we scored over 200 pts a few times, once in quarters and once in semis i think)
No matter how nicely you put it denying an alliance selection is the equivalent of having the most popular girl in school tell the meek class valedictorian that they “just want to be friends”. It still has the same painful effects if she simply snarled “I wouldn’t date you if you were the last man on earth” and slapped him.
I remember a few years ago a team was turned down by a more established team from their area at the championships and we were sitting nearby the rejected team. The kids were miffed and hurt.
It’s legal but there is no real pleasant way to do it. Just say no thanks and move on.