Denying Students into class

Competition Team Organization
1

Our team is going into our third year in the competition and like last year we have a class to go along with the competition. Since we try to be selective in the members that are aloud in the class, we have found 2 people that we do not believe will be able to live up to the expectations that we expect the students in the class to live up to. We have had input from their teachers and other students on the team that know them. What I am asking you is what is the best way to tell them with GP that we don’t think they will be right for the class. But we are inviting them to still be on the team and work on the robot during the build season, and come to the competition.

Thanks
Torboticsmember

2

I don’t believe that it is your choice who can be in the class. There is no GP way to deny them if they meet the requirements for the class.

Seeing how this program brings out the best in people, I would think you would want them there.

3

Agreed. This program is supposed to broaden the appeal of STEM, not to be a gatekeeper of knowledge. Let them in.

4

I would say let them in also. It’s their loss if they do not put forth the effort to succeed in said class but you don’t have a right to deny them the chance.

-Vivek

5

Even though this is a class, our team has set requirements for each of its students. Does the class have requirements? Certain grades? Teacher recommendation? Although this seems un-GP, this is how most things work. They’re not going to hire you to work on the space shuttle if you got a bad grade in Calculus or if you do not get along with other employees.

6

I don’t know that there is enough information in the OP’s post to make a clear assessment of criteria required for a robotics class.

That said, it would be the teacher’s/administration’s call, not the students.

If part of being on the FIRST team is curriculum based and assignments, productivity, journals, tests, etc. are part of the grade then this has to be taken back to falling under the school’s responsibility to the students.

Bottom line, if it is a class and the students decide who can be in the class, that sends up a red flag for me, personally.

7

If the actual issue is potential behavioral problems, or lack of work ethic, or both, I can give you an example as to how our team handles this.

We have open registration for our team in October, where anyone and everyone can apply. They simply fill out an application, with tons of questions, not just about their knowledge of robotics (this isn’t so important), but also as to WHY they want to join the team, and what they think they will get out of the experience. After all of the applications are in, our three co-captains (students) and lead mentor (teacher) review the applications. Typically 90-95% of the students move to the next stage of the process. The other 5-10% will not, as to the discretion of the team leaders. These students are typically picked because, according to their application, they want to be on the team to exclusively ‘hang out with their friends’, ‘go on trips’, etc. While those are fun things involved with FIRST, if students do not express interest in the important things as well, we feel that the program is not for them.

After the students are selected to move on, they are required to show up to the weekly class scheduled during a multi-purpose block. Attendance is heavily weighted at the next cut. Students are broken up into the different groups during this class (electrical, mechanical, marketing, finance, etc.) The group leaders of each of these groups (we have somewhere on the order of 12 groups in our team, with a total of between 40 and 50 students) will have recommendations for each student at the time of the next cut as well.

This next cut is about mid-way through build-season. Their performance can be weighted along with their attendance and a few other factors, such as behavior (however a separate behavioral policy is also in effect, explained below.) Typically about 80% of the students make it through this cut.

The final cut is at the end of build season, when deciding who goes on what trips. Typically there are a few different travel categories (i.e. All remaining students at this point are allowed to travel to the Connecticut Regional (as we are in the hosting city) (and except for those students on suspension or probation from the team.) and another (smaller, probably about 75% of the remaining team) group that will travel to our second regional, and yet another to go to championships (if applicable.))

Behavior is a whole other situation. Minor behavioral problems are noted by sub-team leaders, and will be brought up at cut times. More major behavioral issues might warrant the issuing of a yellow or red card (different levels of probation) to a particular team member (these again, are heavily considered at cut times, as well as may prevent a student from being able to have certain responsibilities.) For much more severe problems, a student may be put on suspension, meaning that they can’t participate on the team at all for the rest of the year. The worst situation for a student is being permanently kicked off of the team, without the chance to re-apply. Fortunately this has only happened on two occasions on our team (in it’s 2.5 year existence.)

While we are an inter-city school with many cultural, and behavioral problems, we have set up a system that seems to work for us. Every student that wants to participate gets a chance to do so, and if they show effort and willingness to learn, get to reap the benefits.

Hope this helps!
Jacob

8

Team RUSH has always had an application process. We are required to put in resumes, have an interview, and get recommendations from our parents, our teachers. We also have to write several short essays. Students have been turned down.

On the topic of denying entry in a GP way, it should be done by the teacher of the course. They should be informed why they did not meet the requirements so over the next year they can work towards meeting them if this is something they want to do. Also, keep a record of who applied and why they were turned down. If they come back next year after addressing the issue then you may want to recognize this desire to better themselves.

To all the people who said that they should be allowed on because no one should be denied the chance to learn. Ive known several students who caused problems on RUSH and had to be asked to leave the team. If a teacher has to spend time disciplining kids that is less time they can spend teaching. It is not a decision to be taken lightly and it cannot be made solely by one person. Also, regarding the student input, I believe that students should not judge other students.

9

There are a couple students on 166 that get into trouble and don’t do well in school. How would we be helping them by denying them a membership on our team?

For many of these students, FIRST is the only lever that will get them to change their ways, do better in school, and stay out of trouble.

10

I personally think we have some kids in the classes and on the team that shouldn’t be there. But it is their choice, parents’ and the school’s choice.

11

If it’s driven solely by the team then you should be able dictate who gets to attend competition and who doesn’t. If it’s school driven I would caution you on even thinking of denying anyone. The last thing school districts want to hear is an angry parent ripping their head off because their child cannot participate in a school activity because they are percived to be a problem. The school district will crack down on the team in a heartbeat. It’s easier to deal with an unruly student than an uncooperative school administration.

12

Here’s a story from my college days.

Everyone had to have so many English credits. There was a class called Women’s Lit and a bunch of football players signed up for the class thinking it would be an easy A, easy class.

One of the books that was read/discussed/studied was I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings, by Maya Angelou.

It was an intensive class with a lot of assignments and a lot of class interaction was required. Some of the football players dropped the course but some stayed and became active participants. At the end of the course, one of the guys told me it was the best class he had taken so far and he was glad he had overcome his preconceived notions towards the subject matter and the easy A. He made the decision to go the distance, do the work, and be open to a different way of thinking.

13

Don’t make preconceived notions about the students. All students should have equal opportunities to learn.

Let them into the class. Introduce them to robotics, teach them. It make take some extra effort to teach them, and it may take an alternative channel to reach them, but be patient. If you are looking to teach higher level robotics concepts in the main course, then you should also have an intro level course in which you can refer them to.

If they express absolutely no interest in learning - or even attempting to learn - then you can ask them to leave the class if they are disrupting the class for those students who are interested in learning.

But just be cautious of falling into the “every student should perform the same” idea of No Child Left Behind. Some students will learn faster than others, and some will learn better through some methods (lectures, reading, hands-on labs, etc.) than others. Instead of expecting all to always achieve the same level, you should instead seek to challenge all students at levels equal to their learning speed/methods.

Education is one area where “one size fits all” never applies, so try not to mistake a slower learning student who struggles with some concepts for one who expresses no interest in learning them. Also realize that while not all students in FIRST will go into engineering professions, all of them will use the knowledge and skills learned through FIRST to better their lives, no matter what their ultimate career choice is.

14

I could not agree more. We have always had an open door policy to any students wanting to be on the team. However, this program is not for everybody, and we have had to ask a few to leave. This has been done to keep the team focused and not distracted by the wanderings of some disruptive students. These have never been easy decisions. We believe in giving each student every opportunity to succeed, however, if their actions continue to be a hinderance to the team, then the student will asked to leave by the teacher.

15

Yes, some people should be pushed. If a student demonstrates a willingness to learn they should never be denied.I admire those students. Some students have a history of discipline problems. I am merely remarking that some students, such as ones who have been suspended for insubordination (by multiple teachers) don’t belong on an FRC team. Yes they may shape up but at the same time, they could cause problems and negatively impact the learning of other students.

Perhaps the correct solution would be to let the students in as probationary members. Actually this should be done with all new students. Just to see if things work or not.

16

While I commend your concern for the performance of the team and the learning opportunities of existing team members, I feel as though you are not giving these students the chance you were yourself given.

Here are a few steps you might take to make sure that all students are afforded a proper chance, and to ensure that team standards are met.

  • Get in contact with your teachers. Discuss your concerns. As a student, like it or not, you probably have little control over school enrollment. Dealing negatively with the school corporation might not just result in a lack of cooperation when you need something later - it could result in the abolishment of your class, your team or the removal of rights to use the school machine shop. This in turn will shine negatively on you as a team, as well as upon your sponsors.

  • If there is not already a contract or constitution in place for your team, write one. If one exists, sit down and revise it with teachers, student leaders, and lead mentors. You might consider giving special attention to sections about student participation and class admission. However you choose to manage this issue is your choice, but you should try to create a system that will be used for class admission in the future. Pick a standard, and make sure all students are judged by it.

  • Most importantly - ask yourself a few really hard questions immediately. How would you feel if your ability to join an organization was determined by other students? How well do your teammmates really know these individuals, and what are their relationships? You might be allowing personal biases to seep through. What could these students do to make your team better? What do they bring to the table?

As a student leader on your team, you are at this very moment a role model. Younger students and team members are looking at your for the call to make next. The maturity with which you handle this matter may set a tremendous standard for your team, and I believe that you have the capability to set that bar high.

17

It’s a strange sign of progress that this topic is being discussed.

In a bygone era when Nixon was president, I was part of a small group that kept A/V equipment running (e.g., fixed the 16mm projectors, set up microphones for school assemblies, etc.) in the back room of my high school library. Our group dreamed of future technologies, but we never dreamed of turning students away. That was the kind of thing that the un-nerdly groups did to others, often including us. The soundbite version of my thought is that I was a nerd when nerds were decidedly not cool.

I have to side with those who answer the OP’s question by saying don’t turn anyone away.

This discussion goes to the heart of what we are all aiming for. As wilsonmw04 points out:

This program is supposed to broaden the appeal of STEM, not to be a gatekeeper of knowledge.
And I agree. So, what is your aim? Do you want your school’s robotics program to be a class, a club, or a clique?

18

If this is a regular school class, then the school administration (principal, counselors, etc) have the say on who gets in. It will be based on prerequisites, meeting requirements, most likely class standing, and unfortunately in a few cases it will be based on parents that complain the most.

If the class is part of the team structure, part of being in the club, then the admittance requirements may be governed by school policy. For example, our district has a policy of a minimum grade point average to be involved in any extra-curricular activity - whether that be robotics, the football team, SADD, or the forestry club. It matters not how beneficial the activity would be for a student or the community - if the student can’t keep up his grades, he’s not on a team or club.

The team also has had an application process, simply to ensure that all who show up have at least a minimal level of interest. It’s easy to show up at a meeting and say, “I’m on the team.” If the student has to write a couple of short essay answers and get a teacher recommendation, there’s more commitment.

I don’t know what the response would be if all the answers came out, “To hang with friends and get a few days off of school on trips.” Nor if the student couldn’t find any teacher willing to recommend her. I don’t think that’s come up.

We have had to deal with a few behavior issues on prior teams, had to put restrictions on team members when their grades slipped, or had to drop team members for non-attendance. When the last happened, it generally was a mutual thing - the student stopped coming, the team didn’t expect him any more, and if he had shown up 2 days before leaving on a regional or championship trip he would have quietly been told by a mentor that he wasn’t going because of his attendance.

19

  1. If they want to be in the class, then that means that they are willing to stake their grade at the expense of learning about robots. That marks determination, Freshman don’t know a lot about robots in general, but that doesn’t mean that we won’t let them on the team.

  2. When freshman come in the fall, they have no clue what to do, I didn’t, so it is up to them to take the initiative to learn and ur job to teach.

20

Can you explain to us what the difference is between being on the team, and being in the class? Also, can you explain the leadership in place that allows you as a student to make this decision.