If they meet the minimum requirements to be on the team, you could end up in a very sticky situation with the school administration/school board if you turn them away.
That said, we’ve never had the luxury of having so many people want to be on the team that we’ve had to limit membership. If they’re interested, even if you think they may not be a good fit, there’s no reason not to give them a chance. If it turns out that they are disruptive or a problem, you can try to work it out, or remove them from the team at that point.
First off I want to thank everyone for the feed back i have gotten on this.
And I will try to clear up any miss information I had in the first post
It hasn’t been the students decision to either let them in the class or not. The students have given their opinion on whether or not they would think the applicants would be good for the class or not. But it will be the teachers who make the final decision.
The teachers have taken the opinions of the other students in the class (obviously trying to decide whether the opinions are because of bias or not) and we have also asked the student’s various teachers to fill out a report on the students based on the traits we think will be good for the class.(All students had to go through this process, even the already existing members)
We aren’t basing the decision on grades because we have had students on the team who did not do so well in class, but were driven, and did extremely well in robotics, and after joining they improved their grades.
I can’t stress this point enough we do not want to deny them from being on the team, but only the class. They would still be able to help design and build the robot.
So I can give you a picture of the team there are three sections of the team. We have the “club” part of the team. This includes people who are interested in the team but have expressed that they do not wish to actually work on the robot. This will be used for fundraising, events, awards, and other very important tasks. The second section are those who will come after school during build season and work on the robot, and when we have other attractions that we will attend. These people will also be in the club. This section is for students that apply (an open application, with an essay explaining why they want to be on the team) before the build season starts, but after the school year has begun. Finally we have the class, these students are usually at least second year students or have shown a deep interest and an understanding of the commitment needed to be in the class. As part of being in the class you also have to work at least x number of hours during the build season that is decided by the teachers of the team during the first semester of school. And also you are in the club and help with fundraising and other projects.
Normally the second section of the team is used as a stepping stone into the class. If they show a dedication and a strong interest during the build season, which most do, and are a freshmen, sophomore, or junior we will invite them to join the class the next year. Unfortunately the students in question were not on the team last year and have not shown an interest to one of the teachers or the leaders of the team before they signed onto the class, or the understanding of the dedication needed to be in the class.
And I did make a mistake, we haven’t decided to not let them in yet the teachers are still trying to decide. The question was just a precaution
What I do at work (a go-kart track) is, if they meet minimum height, they ride, even if it’s just barely. If they get in trouble, slow them down to the next speed, if available. If they still get in trouble, they have to leave the track and ride a “smaller” one.
Let them into the class, provided they meet the minimums and the teachers choose to allow them. If something goes wrong, send them to the “second section” of the team and ask them to take the class next year, when they understand more.
Lack of “correct” interest should not be a deterrent. Back in the day, students might join teams just for a “free” trip to Disney World. They learned things along the way, though, I bet. (I think it’s safe to assume that some of them still hang around FIRST, though they’d be in college or the workforce now.)
As some people pointed out, just because it appears that someone might not be right for a team or the class, you won’t really know until you’ve given them a chance. There are so many FIRST “success stories” from students on different teams, where being a member of a robotics team has turned their life around, whether by changing their outlook on life, their attitude, their appreciation for learning, their career path, their friendships, or many other things. Robotics can be a great constructive activity for people who might otherwise be considered “unruly” or “bad students”, and I don’t think it’s right to deny them a chance. On my team, I have watched several students learn and grow into more mature, respectful people with a passion for engineering and talent individual areas. If our team had denied students the rights to participate before giving them the chance, they never would have had the opportunity to grow in this way. I know these “success stories” exist outside of my team, so I’d like to suggest that you give everyone the chance to join your robotics class.
If your team is absolutely positive that you want to deny people the opportunity to be in the robotics class, you are definitely going to have to go about it carefully.
Like someone else mentioned, if your team is affiliated with your school, which it sounds like it is, upset/offended parents might go complain to the school administration, which can potentially cause a slew of negative consequences for your team.
Make sure you have a clearly defined set of requirements for class entry, so that the decision does not seem arbitrary or subjective- you want to make it look very objective, based on definitive guidelines so that there is less room for argument and problems.
Also, you definitely want to have your head teachers/coaches/mentors making the decisions, not your students. This will also make the decision seem more fair and less arguable, as it isn’t about cliques and social standings for the adults, but it could be blamed on that if it is a student’s peers making the decision not to allow him onto a team.
Finally, make sure it is explained to the student exactly why he was denied permission to join the robotics class; what criteria didn’t he meet, what could he work on for the future? Be nice about it, thank him for applying and encourage him to apply again in the future. (Don’t be surprised if he doesn’t, though, there might still be some hurt feelings/bruised egos left behind.)
The situatuion on our team may be different then yours, but we don’t deny anyone. If they would like to participate, we will find something for them to do. Granted, it is nice to have people who know what they are doing right off the bat, but the only good way for them to learn is by having them see what’s going on. They may not be the best to have there for the first year, but by the second season they should have plenty enough wisdom to get stuff done.:rolleyes:
IF they meet the criteria to join: let them join. Don’t refuse entry because they might be a problem. Take them in, try to teach them, and if they do as you suspect they will boot them. Have them drop the class after the first semester. Fail them. Give the work to students that will do it and give them simple things that “even a cave man can do it”. I give everyone a chance. That is the GP way. If they don’t take advantage of that chance, I am not to blame. Just a suggestion.
I completely agree with them. I was president of team 698 during the 2008 games. i have now graduated and am a mentor for the team. Our school also has a class to go along with the club, it is set up as a open to everyone, but if they were fooling off or not doing anything at all they would get transferred out of the class.
To deny a student the opportunity to learn is always a mistake. My second year teaching I started keeping a folder of things that showed me that giving someone a chance had made a difference. The folder is OVERFLOWING after 15 years.
There was a point for every single one of us that we didn’t know where we were going or what we would do. School is the place we hope to show them. This is why I teach in a public school and always will. Those difficult students need to be in your class and learn from you as well as the teacher. You don’t have to be a teacher to make a difference in their lives. Caring role models will do the same.
Give them a chance, it’s that simple. After a month or so if they don’t live up to your team and class standards then ask them to leave. Odds are, if they haven’t left on their own then they do fit into the program.
In my opinion there are a lot of kids on my team who shouldn’t be but they are also the kids who aren’t involved very much so it really doesn’t matter. If you look at it those who want to be there, even if it’s to go on trips or to hang with friends, they will work hard for what they want. And if they get inspired along the way then it’s a bonus.
I think that this is a tricky tightrope to walk. If they meet requirements, but you don’t think they’ll be able to go those few extra steps to really *get *it, then thats a hard call to make. If you see the potential, then at least let them try. If you don’t want to give them a flat no, then tell them that would benefit most from waiting, unless they’re going to be senoirs, in which case I would let them join.
I understand about having cooperation and communication and good feelings in a workplace. Sometimes ours gets out of whack, and a couple of things happen. First, we don't get things done. Second, somebody usually ends up getting insulted. Third, it's usually louder from all the yelling that's going on. Everybody agreeing and getting along and having a common passion and goal is just as important, to me, as meeting the "requirements". You could have the best grades, reccommendations, and be Ken Jennings, but if you don't mesh well with the others and don't have the same apparant drive and passion, I think it's right to say let's wait, or give them a trial run.
I don't really see this as denying them learing,seeing as they're still on the team, but rather as a way to keep harmony. If they really want to be in the class, they'll change or they won't. If you let them in and it works out, great! If you do and it doesn't, well, you need to be more careful. If you tell them to wait and it works out later, than fine, that was a good decision. Based on what Torboticsmember said, this is pretty much how I'd look at this.
You say that the decision of who is in the class is up to the teacher. Fair enough… there are, presumably, limited class spaces and demand for the spaces exceeds supply. In that case it makes sense to ration the spaces to those most likely to benefit from the spaces.
However if it is the teachers’ decision, then it is also the teachers’ responsibility to discuss this with the students in question.
NOT yours.
You can offer encouragement, support, etc. but the responsibilty to communicate the decision lies with the person who makes the decision.
I’ve worked with some teachers who share the motto, “Teachers have the right to teach, students have the right to learn.”
I am sure that your school district would not want to deny these students the opportunity to learn, even if the class is directly related to the team. So work with these students and help them take advantage of the opportunity to be class. Inspiration can happen anywhere at anytime.