Disappointing Animation Judging

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by Mike Dubreuil, Student on team #175, Buzz, from Enrico Fermi High School and UTC - Hamilton Standard Space Systems.

Posted on 4/27/99 1:53 PM MST

I believe that based on the animation scoring sheet
animations were supposed to be realistic. Because of
that our team designed an animation which involved a
school gymnasium and a movie theatre- very realistic
situations. But when it came to the winners very few,
if any, were realistic. Has anyone else experienced
the same anomaly?

  • Mike
    PS: Our animation is on our site if you’re interested.
2

Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School.

Posted on 4/27/99 2:48 PM MST

In Reply to: Disappointing Animation Judging posted by Mike Dubreuil on 4/27/99 1:53 PM MST:

Um…did you look at our animation?
I think I saw all the animations there before the practice rounds started.

I, personally, think mine is the best of all.

I thought we were supposed to show the ROBOT working and scoring.

Although I admit that my animation is a little hasty, it was the nly way to ‘display’ that my robot is going to do well.

What’s up with the robot gridning down the rail? (That winning animation)
and that Autodesk Lady was like ‘that spark is so hard to do!!!’

I am not sure…But you can probably get plug-ins, maybe even make one, for that kind of effect.
They should make us submit the animation file.

Our robot animation file is perfectly constructed. If you turn the axle of our globe motor, our gripper activates. Our chains and drill motors turn (using path deform) as the wheels turn.
We actually have floppies on the animation. And they do not go through the robot when robot hits them. (Space warps)
We have 4 robots that are modeled to the detail of tiny screws and coiled springs. (two evil robots, ours, and our last year’s robot.)

Enough of our animation.
Go get it…

complain from kison

ps: can i see your animation, Mike?

3

Posted by Rich Spadaccini, Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from SWHS and IFC.

Posted on 4/29/99 3:49 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Disappointing Animation Judging posted by Sean Kim on 4/27/99 2:48 PM MST:

Really there is more to the contest than just looks and design accuracy. OUr robot is exact to the 10th of an inch and everything is constrained as it should be na dtension is assigned to the wires and chain, but its more than juts accuracy its the flair that catches the mind, a 30 commercial is what will win nice and simple, and slower is better

4

Posted by Kyle Huang, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School and Nasa Ames, Sun Microsystems, Xerox.

Posted on 4/27/99 5:44 PM MST

In Reply to: Disappointing Animation Judging posted by Mike Dubreuil on 4/27/99 1:53 PM MST:

YES. I totally agree! Our animation was made very realistic. We had four robots in
competition battling it out. Isn’t that what the animation is supposed to be like?

About the winner…
I’m sorry, but a robot suddenly jumping into the air and flying is just ridiculous.
And how was is supposed to do that grind? The sparks were emphasised in the speech
that the Autodesk official made… WHY?

We made our animation kind of like an info-mercial for our team, because that’s
what we thought they wanted. We clearly showed the functionality of our robot over
and over again. Isn’t that one of the major factors in the judging criteria? The
winning animation didn’t show that at all. I thought the salesman animation that
won honerable mention should have won over the winner.

The modeling on the winning animation was very nice, and the motion was great too.
The look of the final render is good too, so was ours. The winning animation
definately did NOT deserve to win. One thing, however, I think they did that
probably pleased the judges: they portrayed the FIRST competition like a big
sporting event.

One last thing. In the credits for the winning animation, there was an animation
company listed. Does that mean that professionals helped with thier animation???
Our animation was 100% student made, and so was our robot.

I’m trying to get our animation posted on the web. I’ll announce it as soon as it
is.

: I believe that based on the animation scoring sheet
: animations were supposed to be realistic. Because of
: that our team designed an animation which involved a
: school gymnasium and a movie theatre- very realistic
: situations. But when it came to the winners very few,
: if any, were realistic. Has anyone else experienced
: the same anomaly?
: - Mike
: PS: Our animation is on our site if you’re interested.

5

Posted by Justin of team #146, Team Blue Lightning, from West High sponsored by Public Service Company of New Hampshire.

Posted on 4/27/99 6:21 PM MST

In Reply to: Disappointing Animation Judging posted by Mike Dubreuil on 4/27/99 1:53 PM MST:

We haven’t actually submitted an animation in the last few years but I’ve
continued to be interested in the Animation end of things and keep track
of the competition. I has always been my gripe with the Animation comp.
that Autodesk is looking for an award that clearly demonstrates how the
machine will act, and the supposedly judge very heavy on the ablility to
communicate, when I do not believe that they themselves have mastered this
skill. They have told the teams what they actually want in the animation.
It usally seems like they want realism and for teams to show thier machines
performing the tasks they will be designed to perform…after all the whole
point of this software is to use it as a design tool. However the teams
who interpret things this way end up very surprised when they see Billy
Bob selling his robots (btw I happened to like that one ALOT) or a robot
grinding down the rail. I also felt that Billy-Bob should have one over
the team that did as the character animation is ALOT harder than the particles
that the CEO of Autodesk was apparently so impressed by. I think that if
they are going to give an award for communiation they should make sure
that they can communicate effectively themselves first.

-Justin

P.S. Congrats to the the honorable mentions + the winning team you all
produced animations far above the quality of anything I could produce
BRAVO!!!

6

Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School.

Posted on 4/27/99 6:57 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Disappointing Animation Judging posted by Justin on 4/27/99 6:21 PM MST:

I don’t want to offend you or anything.
But that spark is NOT hard.
That’s like…what we do for fun. (I think)

kison

7

Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School.

Posted on 4/27/99 7:00 PM MST

In Reply to: spark? posted by Sean Kim on 4/27/99 6:57 PM MST:

Stupid me.
Sorry.
I misread your post.

No wonder we lost.

kison

Go get our file!

8

Posted by Kris VanKleek, Student on team #71, Team Hammond, from School City of Hammond and Beatty Machine and Manufacturing.

Posted on 4/27/99 7:58 PM MST

In Reply to: Disappointing Animation Judging posted by Mike Dubreuil on 4/27/99 1:53 PM MST:

I am not in a situation like any of you. We were lucky to even have an
animation this year. It was only two students that worked on it and also
we helped with the robot and practiced driving and still got a submission
in.(right before our brand new gateway crashed) I thought that it was so
that the students got a chance to learn the software. The competition is
not all about winning but the experiences that are gained throghout the
competition.

just my two cents

9

Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School.

Posted on 4/28/99 4:59 PM MST

In Reply to: Two cents posted by Kris VanKleek on 4/27/99 7:58 PM MST:

Our animstion is 100 % student built.

Although I led the team of 7 people, 3 people are the ones who actually ‘touched’ the animaton file.
I, also a human player, did about 40%. Eddy, also the MAIN electrical guy, did about 40%. Patrick did about 20%.
I helped out with the Robot as well. Eddy is just the major major guy in programming and electrical stuff.

This project by its trait is not possible with a lot of people working on it.

And you mentioned ‘learning experience.’
Is it true that some schools have their animation DONE by the engineers?
I mean…I know we don’t do that. I know Gunn (Daniel and Kyle) doesn’t do that, right?
I find this very frustrating. They should have some kind of rule that includes regulations on the participation of experts.

This project took over 500 hours os MY time. Who knows how much it is when combined with other people on the team. Probably over 1500 hours.

I just hope that judges didn’t think ‘oh…Team 115 did a good animation. But their robot was only 190th,’ and ditched us.

upset kison

PS: Mike! I can’t see your video. I tried it with Media Player 2. Should I get real player? This is weird because I can play other RM files.

10

Posted by Mike Dubreuil, Student on team #175, Buzz, from Enrico Fermi High School and UTC - Hamilton Standard Space Systems.

Posted on 4/28/99 5:53 PM MST

In Reply to: learning experience posted by Sean Kim on 4/28/99 4:59 PM MST:

Yes, you should download the Real Player. I aggree that there should be many more ground rules set on animation. If you ask me the animation rules are very sketchy. Our animation is 100% done by students also.

  • Mike

: Our animstion is 100 % student built.

: Although I led the team of 7 people, 3 people are the ones who actually ‘touched’ the animaton file.
: I, also a human player, did about 40%. Eddy, also the MAIN electrical guy, did about 40%. Patrick did about 20%.
: I helped out with the Robot as well. Eddy is just the major major guy in programming and electrical stuff.

: This project by its trait is not possible with a lot of people working on it.

: And you mentioned ‘learning experience.’
: Is it true that some schools have their animation DONE by the engineers?
: I mean…I know we don’t do that. I know Gunn (Daniel and Kyle) doesn’t do that, right?
: I find this very frustrating. They should have some kind of rule that includes regulations on the participation of experts.

: This project took over 500 hours os MY time. Who knows how much it is when combined with other people on the team. Probably over 1500 hours.

: I just hope that judges didn’t think ‘oh…Team 115 did a good animation. But their robot was only 190th,’ and ditched us.

: upset kison

: -----------
: PS: Mike! I can’t see your video. I tried it with Media Player 2. Should I get real player? This is weird because I can play other RM files.

11

Posted by Kyle Huang, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School and Nasa Ames, Sun Microsystems, Xerox.

Posted on 4/28/99 7:14 PM MST

In Reply to: learning experience posted by Sean Kim on 4/28/99 4:59 PM MST:

Yes, Gunn’s animation is 100% student built, so is our robot. We’re proud of that.
One problem with regulating the participants, is that no one knows if a professional made
the animation or not. They could do that, and just not say so. But nobody in this
competition would ever do that, right? Do we really know that for sure? I personally think
they should regulate the whole competition including the robot that way, but that won’t
happen any time soon. Teams like ours prove that it is indeed possible to have a totally
student-run team, and a 100% student designed AND built robot, AND still do very well in
ompetition. Our robot was undefeated during the qualifying matches at the nationals. We
made it to the finals, and we won the Honeywell Leadership in Controls award. We are all
very proud of how well we did.

One thing Sean, Autodesk has the winners decided way before the national competition. So,
they will never look at your robot’s performance and take that into consideration.

This year, I see autodesk being very hypocritical, as I may have said in another post. I
simply think they should follow thier own guidelines. In the upcoming years, it will be
incredibly difficult to win the animation competition, if Autodesk won’t follow thier own
judging criteria. Nobody can predict what they’ll want out of an animation. So we can just
try our best and hope for the best.

: Our animstion is 100 % student built.

: Although I led the team of 7 people, 3 people are the ones who actually ‘touched’ the animaton file.
: I, also a human player, did about 40%. Eddy, also the MAIN electrical guy, did about 40%. Patrick did about 20%.
: I helped out with the Robot as well. Eddy is just the major major guy in programming and electrical stuff.

: This project by its trait is not possible with a lot of people working on it.

: And you mentioned ‘learning experience.’
: Is it true that some schools have their animation DONE by the engineers?
: I mean…I know we don’t do that. I know Gunn (Daniel and Kyle) doesn’t do that, right?
: I find this very frustrating. They should have some kind of rule that includes regulations on the participation of experts.

: This project took over 500 hours os MY time. Who knows how much it is when combined with other people on the team. Probably over 1500 hours.

: I just hope that judges didn’t think ‘oh…Team 115 did a good animation. But their robot was only 190th,’ and ditched us.

: upset kison

: -----------
: PS: Mike! I can’t see your video. I tried it with Media Player 2. Should I get real player? This is weird because I can play other RM files.

12

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 4/28/99 7:39 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: learning experience posted by Kyle Huang on 4/28/99 7:14 PM MST:

Kyle is not entirely correct about our robot being 100% student designed and built. We take design advice from engineers, in addition to letting them manufacture a few of the parts our shop can’t support. Without engineers, we’d be starting from ground zero. That’s exactly what FIRST is trying to avoid.

On a similar note, I say “great!” to any team who wants to heavily involve engineers in these processes. I personally don’t mind the competition! It raises the bar, makes it more fun. I feel that no forced limitations should be implemented. However, I do want to say that as a student who works on a student run team with a student designed and student built robot, I get a HUGE amount out of this project — more than I could imagine getting under any other arrangement. WE make the mistakes, WE learn, WE experiment…engineers keep us away from the brick walls. This is my ideal. I’m not belittling the “learn by observing” principle in any sense, I’m just saying that you should all give this a try sometime. It’s enlightening for us and it’s refreshing for our engineers. You’d be surprised how good of an engineer a sophomore in high school can become in the right light.

A student is simply an engineer that’s not quite as washed up =)
(boy did I put my foot in my mouth on that one!!)

Go Students!
-Daniel

13

Posted by Andy Baker, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/28/99 8:17 PM MST

In Reply to: Student vs. Engineer Philosophy posted by Daniel on 4/28/99 7:39 PM MST:

: A student is simply an engineer that’s not quite as washed up =)
: (boy did I put my foot in my mouth on that one!!)

(I’ll take that cast, Daniel.)

Hang on a sec… I had two times this past weekend, COUNT 'EM, TWO!,
that I was asked which grade I was. One person who asked was even an
adult! My wife got a kick out of that one. And, yeah, speaking of my
lovely wife… she’s pregnant! She’s due Nov. 12th… do the math and
look at when we delivered robots. How’s that for washed up! :wink:

Trying hard not to be too proud,
Andy B.

14

Posted by Adam, Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells/ UTC.

Posted on 4/28/99 8:41 PM MST

In Reply to: Student vs. Engineer Philosophy posted by Daniel on 4/28/99 7:39 PM MST:

Having all students or all enginneers work on the robot is not the way to go, at least to me. A partnership teaches so much. A student learns by doing, but he also can learn from the experiance of a real engineer. Why not take advantage of that source? All student built is great for building, but you miss out on the experiance. All engineer built means you miss the pride of seeing something you thought of work.

I would like to say that this year was possible the best learning experiance for me on becoming an engineer. I paired up with an enginneer, and worked to develop several ideas. I learned more than i could have on my own, yet I did do a lot of work. I got to develop a prototype, make it work, and then make the decision that it wasn’t the right way to go. My engineer was right there helping me making the decisions, adding his experiance to mine. I would like to thank him and all the other engineers for putting all the time and effort you do into this FIRST project.
Thank you.

15

Posted by Dan, Student on team #10, BSM, from Benilde-St. Margaret’s and Banner Engineering.

Posted on 4/28/99 7:41 PM MST

In Reply to: learning experience posted by Sean Kim on 4/28/99 4:59 PM MST:

There IS a rule that limits the participation of experts, it is in the acronym of FIRST. Having an engineer do your animation is not nearly as inspiring as doing it yourself.
Teams that have engineers do it gain nothing except a block of acrylic (trophy) at most. When you do it yourself you gain experience and you become inspired. Your product may not be given the same recognition as an engineer-made one, but you did not make it just for recognition.
If you intend to win FIRST or the animation contest you will need to be lucky. Nothing is clear cut. If you do FIRST to win, you’re missing the point. Because not only is it unlikely that you will win, but it still takes a lot of luck even if you’re very good.
For those reasons it should be obvious that the competition is with yourself. Learn, have fun, focus on the real prizes and NO ONE CAN STOP YOU. The game of education has perfect rules, no luck required, everyone can win. FIRST is a ton more satisfying if you can look past the winning part.
Ok, that being said winning is a ton of fun and can do some inspiring too, but it should just be a consequence of focusing on the real goals that Dean keeps telling us about.
:-Dan
PS sorry if I sound preachy, I really feel strongly about this cause I want to see FIRST work.

: And you mentioned ‘learning experience.’
: Is it true that some schools have their animation DONE by the engineers?
: I mean…I know we don’t do that. I know Gunn (Daniel and Kyle) doesn’t do that, right?
: I find this very frustrating. They should have some kind of rule that includes regulations on the participation of experts.

16

Posted by Kris VanKleek, Student on team #71, Team Hammond, from School City of Hammond and Beatty Machine and Manufacturing.

Posted on 4/29/99 6:27 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: learning experience - YOU ONLY GET WHAT YOU GIVE posted by Dan on 4/28/99 7:41 PM MST:

That is exactly how I feel, when my partner and I saw our animation on
thursday morning it was so great to see. It wasn’t the best animation by
far but I know that I did that and I worked hard on that animation. I am
just glad that I had the experience to sit down and do the animation.

17

Posted by Rich Spadaccini, Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from SWHS and IFC.

Posted on 4/29/99 3:32 PM MST

In Reply to: learning experience posted by Sean Kim on 4/28/99 4:59 PM MST:

Ok Well ill say our animation is 100% student built as well, mainly becasue i was the only student involved in the animation this year and the entire team.
I’ve been readin gthe posts and i agree to an extent with some of the comment sbut believe that engineers and/or advisors are needed to complete the animation the first year its done. Speaking from experience my first animation received a 38% from teh judges, which i thought unfair at the time but now looking back i would give it a 25%. YEs you put a lot of time into your animation but you have to admit the judges did a good job and followed the criteria very well.
Every year there are better animations as kids learn more about the programs they use and i can honestly say mine is the best this year. I put in more hours than i can count and yet still worked on the robot. The winners were betetr than mine and i can see why from a point of view, while i will defend mine is the best because i put so much time into it the winners were good. HAs anyone ever tried to make a human? I have and it took me so long. And the first place one was just technicaly superior to most and made it look better with teh special effects at the right place, not explosions but effects
YEs this was winded because i had a lot to say, just try harder next year. I have valued my aniamtion experience a lot and have learned more about the programs than i ever imagined, and realize that FIRST is about learning and you do learn when you try to animate
Finally if you want to see what one studen can produce check the aniamtion at this link http://198.82.97.30/Animation.htm I warn you it may not paly because it was compressed from 180 megs to 3.4

18

Posted by Kyle Huang, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School and Nasa Ames, Sun Microsystems, Xerox.

Posted on 4/29/99 4:12 PM MST

In Reply to: There is more than just learning posted by Rich Spadaccini on 4/29/99 3:32 PM MST:

I have to disagree. I definately think that engineers aren’t needed to produce an animation for a first year team. Example: GRT won the animation competition its very first year in competition (1997). I wasn’t on the team back then, but the animation team consisted of three students, plus one more to draw the storyboard, and no engineers. The only professional help that was recieved was help getting the final animation onto video tape, and mixing sound.

: I’ve been readin gthe posts and i agree to an extent with some of the comment sbut believe that engineers and/or advisors are needed to complete the animation the first year its done.

19

Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School.

Posted on 4/29/99 5:09 PM MST

In Reply to: There is more than just learning posted by Rich Spadaccini on 4/29/99 3:32 PM MST:

You know why I am so upset over this matter?

My team has a contact with a professor in Cogswell College. This college is famous for its computer graphics department. This is where we get our file to tranferred to the video tape (we do them, of course. he watches us in the background.)
He is just a great person to work with. He is very well aquanted with one of the judges last year. And after we won the honorable mention, he asked the judge why we didn’t win the first place.

They told us that our intro was too long, which was 9 seconds. They told us to show MORE robot. They wanted the ROBOT to score and pick up the ball and stuff.
Well…That’s what we DID this year. The whole freaking 30 seconds.

You guys seem to be so fascinated by the character animation of that honorable mention.
I mean, I liked it. But I didn’t get it. how does their robot work?

have you guys seen Mills High School’s animation last year? I think they have BETTER character animation…They have like 3 people in it.
And how did they do? They got disqialified. Why? Because they used the stupid Epcot ball without permission from Disneyworld.

if you guys want to see this, ask me. i will put it up. It’s 22 mb.

kison

20

Posted by Jacob Etter, Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells and ONSI Corp.

Posted on 4/28/99 6:30 PM MST

In Reply to: Disappointing Animation Judging posted by Mike Dubreuil on 4/27/99 1:53 PM MST:

I totally agree with you. But that is the way first works they say one thing but it really doesn’t matter if you follow the directions, they pick who they want for whatever their reasons may be, i remember one year when if i remeber correctly the winning animation exceded the time limit by quite some time. is this fair? no! but that’s the way it is first isn’t fair.