Disappointing Game

FIRST General Forum
#40

I’m going to be counterpoint here.

As a 13 year mentor, this is my first year that my sole regional is not a week 1 regional (I was at GSR every year until this year). I agree that it is frustrating when the game is ‘fixed’ after week 1. That being said, this is not about the competition, or the robot. If the kids have been inspired, all is good.

Now on th the seeding system… This years game is an alliance centric game. This means that scouting and strategy BEFORE each match is critical. Understanding what your alliance partners are capable of (or even if they are going to show up) and tailoring your strategy/tactics to utilize their abilities to the most is what will win matches. I truely believe that this year most matches will be won at the strategy sessions (with your alliance) BEFORE the match is started. Hence, you are correct, that the best ROBOTs may not seed well, but the best (mostly) stratigists will. I do not think this is bad, but it is different from years past.

Also, about defense… It’s been a number of years since defense has been allowed to play all out. Most years there are safe zones, and such. Without those rules the defense this year will be brutal. Defenses are allowed to be as agressive as the offensive robots have been for years, and some teams have not properly prepared for it. Game strategy is not always about scoring and offense, and this year playing defense (especially if you are designed for it) may be just as effective (or more so).

JM(NS)HO

#41

I must agree with yarden.
The alliance picks reveal everything:
first pick - 1574 - ranked 25
second - 3339 - ranked 18
third - 4320 - ranked 16
fourth - 1577 - ranked 9
fifth - 5038 - ranked 20
and the picks were very good, really close to our scouting.
the OPRs are pretty close to be true this time.

#42

*FIRST *is not looking for the “best” robot. *FIRST * is looking for the “best” teams that can work together to understand all aspects of the game. Then design on build a robot that will be a asset to the many alliances they will be paired with during the qualification rounds. Then the “Best” teams will make it into the elimination rounds where “best” alliance will prevail.
If *FIRST * wanted to find the best robot, they would have a one on one robot matches and the teamwork would not matter.

#43

While I didn’t really get a chance to read too many posts I will admit this. Even if I hate this years game, it does a good job of making rookie and new teams feel like they are welcome to join the fray.
If you make it too complex for the rookie teams then the amount of new teams signing up will be reduced significantly, if its too simple then this forum will happen.
Its a fine balance and I look forward to seeing what FRC learns from this years game when they put together future games.

#44

As a couch in this year’s game, I have to say that I hate my job. I’ve spent 45 days building the robot, and I want them to count for my winning, not the 2 days of competition. On the other hand, games also should be fun to watch, and a game which involves strategy makes great show for the audience (though in my opinion an amazing robot showcasing is always better). FIRST should work on balancing those ideals, and I think this year they went a little too extreme on the “strategy and communication” side.

I don’t agree with you, I think last year’s game done this job much better. In it 2013 was much easier to complete a basic robot (shooter and 1st stage climber) but also featured challenges for the veteran teams (ground pickup, 3rd stage climbing). This year, on the other hand, most teams could not manege to complete all game challenges successfully due to the harder challenge.
I am not saying that this is not a good challenge, but these are the facts. What I do say is that teams that did manege to complete the challenge could find themselves low in the seeding due to their alliances.

#45

And I’ll disagree with you. This year, a team can build a kit bot with absolutely no appendage, and still have a major effect on the game. That box bot can play hard defense, and week 1 has shown us that defense can be the difference between winning and losing. That bot can even score in the low goals, possess the ball, and give assists. Last year, a box bot was almost useless without some sort of appendage to hang or score low goals. And defense was nearly impossible because of all the safe zone.

So without a doubt, a very inexperienced rookie team can still build a robot and have just as good of a chance as anyone else.

I’m truly sorry that the Israel regional did not go according to plan. But that is the risk one takes with a week 1 event. I won’t blame anyone, but I think that if it were to have been even a week 2 regional, the outcome would have been much more positive for all teams involved.

#46

This is an interesting point. What is the rule on smashing into robots this year? I may have missed the specifics in the manual, but I didn’t see anything laid out for what is and isn’t allowed.
I am assuming that tearing across the field at full speed into another robot is still a foul right?

#47

Hasn’t been for quite some time. In fact, I think that rule went away with 100% bumper coverage.

#48

I don’t mean to come off as I like this years game in all honesty it is also disappointing to me. Looking around it there are traces of “vestigial game pieces” that hint towards the game having more challenges. Remember at the reveal how they talked about how much the truss can hold? Maybe the end game involved that. The autonomous period in order to be completed bare minimum can have 2 of the 3 robots on a team positioned against a wall and then driven towards the low goal with a ball infront of them. Past games had a level of depth that you just don’t see in this years game. I just see little bits here and there that say this game was supposed to be something else but something happened. I think I should really emphasize the part when I said…
“Its a fine balance and I look forward to seeing what FRC learns from this years game when they put together future games.”
It was my polite way of saying this year the game devs made in my opinion serious mistakes when they made this game and they need to learn from them. I don’t mean to attract flak because making a game is hard. I would be interested to see how much money they put towards game development.

#49

But is a box bot as fascinating as a 2013 high goaler?

As for the week 1 issue, the regional takes place in one of Israel’s biggest basketball arena. It’s good on the one hand, because it helps raising awareness to FRC, but on the other hand we are completely dependent on the schedule of the place. We therefore can not freely pick a time for the regional when it’s the most comfortable for us.

#50

Of course it’s not as fascinating! But FIRST isn’t about who has the most fascinating robot. The goal is to get kids interesting in STEM careers. And if a box bot does that, then mission accomplished.

I’m seeing a lot of people here that think the competition was created with just the robot in mind. If that’s your mindset, you need to do some research into what FIRST is about. It has never been only about the robot, it’s about getting students interested in science and engineering and pursue those careers.

I can see how there are some issues with the venue. That’s disappointing, but obviously nothing can be done.

#51

I don’t know about you, but I find it much more effective to fulfill FiRST’s goals with a good robot. Especially the recognition part. Imagine if every FRC team was a box bot. Would FIRST still even exist? Or would everybody just lose interest over a bunch of robots ramming into reach other and never scoring points?

And, yes, something can be done. FIRST can take better care to make sure things are ready for week 1, and not make the same mistakes they made this year again.

#52

I feel like this thread is filled with too many pessimists :frowning:

#53

You’re right, the other alliance seemed to have ineffective defense. Their strategy was to put three bots on 1772 at once, but 1772 had an incredibly strong drive train, so they didn’t get pushed around as much. Also, so far the inbounding to our bot has been crazy because other human players can toss the ball into our bot and it saves time. I definitely agree though that strategy is incredibly important, and that’s one reason why I love this game. It forces you to work with other teams and figure out a strategy, so communication and teamwork are necessary. It is really difficult to go alone and win.

#54

Of course not. The teams that build High Goal robots in 2013, aren’t going to have a box on wheels, they’ll be shooting over the truss and into the High Goal this year too. However, this year teams that have a box on wheels can actually feel like they’re part of the game. They can score in auton simply by driving forward and shoving a ball into the low goal. I know if I was a rookie, I’d be far more inspired with my box on wheels this year then I would of been last year; and teams that have the capabilities are going to build amazing robots like they do every year. It’s the best of both worlds.

If we toss out the issues that Week 1 venues faced this year, I’d say we have a great game on our hands, and an exciting one too.

#55

As long as you remain optimistic about it . . . . . .:stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

#56

That strikes me as a very selfish attitude. What’s the point in watching people who care only about themselves? Where’s the inspiration in wanting the rest of your alliance to stay out of your way and let you dominate the game?

I think Aerial Assist does a very good job of promoting cooperation and asking every team to contribute. If you want a better chance to control your fate, you have the option of checking with your alliance partners ahead of time to see what you can do to make them as good as they can be.

If you’ve done your job well, your team already knows whether you’re winners.

#57

I agree. Running back and forth at the DoubleDECCer and watching both the Lake Superior and Northern Lights matches, I have to say the the LSR eliminations were easily some of the most exciting I can remember of the regionals I’ve been at. I have to imagine that’s the game the GDC were hoping for-- nail-biter matches of teams playing neck-and-neck.

I didn’t get a chance to watch many qualification matches this weekend, but with regards to eliminations this game really feels “complete”–watching a robot trying to grab that lass truss or 10 point goal to clinch the match is more exciting the hanging last year ever was.

Despite the fact that my team’s robot really didn’t perform well at Northern Lights (missing eliminations for the first time since 2011, barring Championships), I have to say this is probably my favorite game of my time as a student. The depth, the nail-biting eliminations, the simple rules with complex gameplay have lead to what I consider the exact opposite of a disappointing game.

#58

This game serves as a great design for what a lot of people will experience in real life. Most people don’t go through life being a rock star with out some help from others. This game teaches all of us that we will need some help to achieve our goals.

#59

For me this is the best designed game yet as it highlights the need for team work to achieve a goal. Even the alpha male in a wolf pack gets help from the rest of the pack.